Episode 14: New Author Advice: The good, the bad, the ugly
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Danikka: Hey there, welcome to The Snailed It Podcast with Danika and Erin, brought to you by Authors Own Publishing.
Erin: Hi everyone, welcome back for another episode of The Snailed It Podcast with Danika and Erin. Today we are talking about advice for new authors.
Danikka: Yes.
Erin: The good, the bad, and the ugly.
Danikka: Yes, specifically new indie authors. Similar to, I think we did, it was a rant episode in response to a post Erin saw about someone who doesn't read indie authors.
Erin: Because they said they were worse than AI from memory.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah, that's right. This episode has also been prompted by something we've seen on Instagram, but it's not a rant episode.
Erin: No.
Danikka: This is actually like, we semi-agree with the person, but also not. It's prompted a lot of food for thought, like we've talked about it a lot, and that's why we've decided to make the episode. Because we think it's brought up a lot, it's highlighted for us a lot of like, I guess, not issues, but just like areas for improvement and areas for growth in like the language around the production of books in the indie community. Advice that's given to authors that is very blanket, and it might have been true when indie publishing was still like, maybe quite new.
Erin: Yeah, yeah.
Danikka: But the industry is growing really rapidly, and indie publishing is now quickly becoming the first choice for a lot of authors. And with more companies similar to what Authors Own does popping up, and you know, there being lots of options on what you spend your money on, how much money you spend, and the different types of publishing independently, blanket advice is just not the solution. And so we're just going to kind of talk about the advice that we saw in this kind of story series on Instagram, and just kind of like our response to it, basically.
Erin: Yeah, so it should be pointed out from the outset that this was advice specifically for romance authors, because the person giving it was a romance author themselves, but they were there now stepping away from the industry generally. I'm not sure why.
Danikka: Yeah, it was, I think the title was advice for new authors from...
Erin: Someone who's quitting or something.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Erin: And she had a lot of really good advice, but also advice that although might be good for some people, is not going to be good for everyone.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah.
Erin: Depending on what you're doing.
Danikka: And like, as an editor, I took strong issue with her advice about editing.
Erin: Yeah
Dankkia: not just...
Erin: Yes, well that was the point that I think I sent it to you going, I don't know what to think about this particular section.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah. And so I think we can probably start with that, because I think that the issue around editing is something that comes up a lot for indie authors across the board. And it's something that I have, like, not just you send to me, I have like a lot of my clients send things that they've seen to me all the time about advice that's been given out about editing for indie authors, or they'll be doing ARC. Like, I have one client who does a lot of ARC reads for her indie author friends. And she's constantly saying to me, I don't understand how they've gotten to this point. And like, they don't read as edited. And she gets really frustrated because they're really good books. But because she knows what, like, professional editing is, and what the process is, she gets sad for her author friends because it's like your book is amazing. But it could be so much better because you haven't been edited. And it could be because of the confusion around what editing is.
Erin: There's a lot of different terms isn’t there. I think they are not universal by any means.
Danikka: Exactly.
Erin: like Anything in publishing. So I think, yeah, people can get confused. Another thing I thought about this series was that she was trying to help first-time authors save money too.
Danikka: Yes, exactly.
Erin: You do not have to spend a fortune, which is 100% true.
Danikka: Yes, yes.
Erin: Yeah, you can spend as little or as much as you want to.
Danikka: Yes, and we have always been very upfront about that. You don't have to spend much money at all, if any, on self-publishing if you don't want to. And like that money shouldn't be a barrier to getting into self-publishing. And you can definitely work your way up and always come back once you have started to make headway in your career and invest more money into those earlier books if you want to, like 100%.
Erin: And that was one of the pieces of advice that was given in this series was that don't spend too much. This was where we both kind of went twitchy. You don't need to spend a lot of money on editing because you can come back and re-edit later, which yes, you can. But, I find myself thinking that I would rather try and make it the best book I can before it goes into the world than have to try and come back and do it later.
Danikka: Yes, exactly. And also like something that I think you said in, maybe it was our writing process, one of our writing process episodes. You said don't try to publish the first thing you ever write.
Erin: Well, that was more of me advice for myself because some people might like, you know, write something and it's great and they really want to publish it. And that's great. But the first thing I wrote was not, first three things I wrote were not for human consumption.
Dannika: But I think having been an editor and having read lots and lots and lots of manuscripts at various stages and at different and having seen the improvement of people's writing from the draft that I work on to the end draft and the improvement in their writing just from when we start working together to when we finish, I would agree that trying to publish the first book that you finish writing ever is not a good idea. Like, this is just my opinion. Like, you can publish that idea. Definitely, you can publish that idea. Like, I'm not saying abandon that idea. But I don't think if you complete that draft, start to finish, and then they're like, okay, cool, I finished writing it. Now, I'm going to publish it.
Erin: Oh, no.
Danikka: That's not.
Erin: Let it sit in a drawer for at least a month and then come back and go, let's see what we can do.
Danikka: Yeah. But then, like, I feel like we're going, we're going to end up.
Erin: We're going to end up going on a serious ramble.
Danikka: Because this is another thing that we talked about before we started the episode, is there's two different types of indie publishing and that this is where we're talking about blanket advice and that it doesn't really work. But first, I just want to talk about what she said about editing.
Erin: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll come back to the rest of it.
Danikka: So basically, what she was saying was for your first book, don't spend any more than $500 to $700 on editing. And then she went on to say that that would be like your line or copy editing.
Hi everyone. Future Danikka here popping in to save your ears because I went on a bit of a tangent here about the editing process. And what those different stages involve. And if you haven't had a chance to listen to it yet, we actually cover all of that content in the editing process episode of the podcast.
So I encourage you to go and listen to that episode to get that breakdown. So just to summarize the issue that I was taking specifically with this advice in this episode was that, um, The author who was giving this advice, she, was not just calling the the amount that she was saying, authors should spend on earning the line and copy edit, she was also calling it basically a glorified proofread. Which, When you listen to the editing process video, you'll understand is supposed to be basically just the final final check of a manuscript before it goes to ARCs or gets published, um, acts as in advanced readers. So really it when it is going to approve read, it should be just about ready to be published. It should be in its final edited form.
And so this advice that she's giving to skip all other forms of editing, And just jump straight into line editing and proofreading. Is inflating the cost and confusing authors more because Um, Proofreaders, who shouldn't really be doing heavy editing lifting in their work are having to do heavy editing lifting for these authors who have not been made aware of the true process and work that goes into editing. And so it's inflating the cost of proofreading and making just the muddiness of what is already. A process that not many people understand harder to understand. And so I was very upset about this advice particular, not because she was telling people not to pay for editing because I, of course, understand that not everyone has the money to pay for editing. And so there is lots of ways that Indie authors have gotten really Money Savvy and there's way lots of ways that beta readers and arc readers support, Indie authors, which is fantastic. We have an amazing Community. But what I was taking issue was specifically was her mixing up the different types of editing and encouraging people to pay for something.
That is contributing to a growing problem in my industry, as an editor. And so that was what my emotional tangent was on. And I'm already starting to go on the tangent again, because you can tell it's upsetting me quite a lot. So it is this kind of advice that is well intentioned because she was as Aaron will say, after this insert finishes trying to help authors save money, but in the long run, she is hurting authors more because she's making something.
Not accessible. And She's can no. She's heading the industry, more by creating confusion and at a contributing to a problem because there are people who do these jobs in these different stages of editing for a reason. Yeah, it was problematic advice, not because she was trying to save people money, but because she was undervaluing editors and the different stages of editing and completing them. And yeah, it just upset me and got me going as it's going now. So I'm going to stop before I continue to rant again.
Erin: I think her point here was that in the interest of doing it as cheaply as possible basically, because once it's out there earning that money back, it was about earning the money back kind of as quickly as you can. So her point was that if you don't have the money for a dev edit, you can get away with a beta like beta feedback as your developmental edit and then spend your money on the copy edit because that's sort of more valuable as far as, you know
Danikka: Readability.
Erin: All of your grammar and typos and stuff. Which I tend to agree with, but my books would not be what they are without Danikka's dev edits. No one wants to see what they look like in the first draft stage. Yes, and I think her point of this was you don't need to spend a lot of money on it because the first book you publish is going to be far from your best book and it just doesn't, like I think she basically said it doesn't deserve the attention kind of thing. Like it's not going to be worthy of it. Which I understand to a point, but also you're like, but I want to make it as good as I can make it.
Danikka: Yeah
Erin: To put it out there in the world.
Danikka: And this is actually a good segue because I actually think this is where the two different types of indie publishing that have kind of emerged as the industry has grown. This is where I think this kind of blanket advice to new indie authors becomes problematic because I think your type of indie publishing and her type of indie publishing are two different types of indie publishing. So back in the day when like trad publishers used to publish pulp fiction. So I don't know if how many people would know this, but the term pulp fiction comes from when they used to pump out these really like just cheaply produced books as quickly as possible. It's actually how the young adult genre kind of came about.
Erin: Oh!
Danikka: Young adult books used to be produced on this like pulp fiction, really cheap, basically recycled paper. These like old books would be mashed up and pulped and reproduced into these really cheap books and just like pumped out as quickly as possible. Probably not very well edited, just like pumped out and to just to be consumed as quickly as possible basically. And so that's where the term pulp fiction comes up. But then you used a really good term before and people might understand it better, like fast fashion.
Erin: And that's what people have started comparing, especially I suppose the romance genre because people are just, some authors are just incredible at the rate that they can publish books. And they're often those KU ones and they're for the, well, I mean, mine are all in KU, but they're for those readers who will burn through like multiple, like at least a book a day, which just blows my mind. Those readers are incredible. So it's this kind of, yeah, that sort of fast fashion. They're just making as many as they can as quickly as possible. They're really high turnover. They're super easy to read, all of that.
Danikka: But the goal of that type of publishing and the goal of, I don't want to, like there's not really any comparison. Like there's no, there's slower, more intentional, I suppose. Like I wouldn't even say more intentional because-
Erin: No, I don't know how to-
Danikka: Because so there's writing to market, I feel like is what that is almost.
Erin: Yes, that’s yes
Danikka: There's writing to market and then there's writing what you want to write because you want to write it and you want to produce it because you have a vision for what it is. I don't even know what, like dream writing or like-
Erin: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how to phrase it either. And writing to market does require you to write fast. Yes, exactly. Because the market is changing so quickly. People's tastes are changing so quickly that you need to be able to keep up with that. I'm not one of those writers. I would never be able to keep up with that.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah.
Erin: And also I think if you want, if you're writing to market and it lines up with what you want to write, that's incredible. Like, do it.
Danikka: You're one of those lucky few, I feel like, because like-
Erin: But if you are purely writing to market in order to sell, sell, sell and you don't really believe or, you know, you're not like in it, it's going to feel like a bit of a slog. That's an aside.
Danikka: Yeah, and I feel like there's all these different and I mean, like, that would be another whole podcast episode is that is another whole business model in itself.
Erin: Yeah,
Danikka: you could go into like using pen names to bank money on writing that kind of fiction so that then you can write what you want to write under a different name and all these different things. Like there's all different ways that authors do what they do to make money to be able to write different things. There's all different ways to do that. That is another whole podcast episode in itself. That's not what this episode is about. This episode is about advice for new authors. And so the two different types of publishing that you can go into is that fast-paced pumping out the books into usually Kindle Unlimited because that is where the majority of the readers who are reading those types of books are. And that is actually something that this author said in her thing. She said straight up, she was like, I don't think that you should go wide. She said, I think you should go straight into KU, going wide is too hard for new authors.
Erin: Especially when you're new authors.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah. And again, she was talking specifically about romance because that's what she writes. And yeah, she was talking about pumping things out as quickly as possible. She also said to deep dive and read in the genre as voraciously as you could before you even wrote your first draft. So we can definitely see that she's talking about writing to market and writing to make money in that market. And so straight away, if you're not someone who's writing to market, you can kind of see that this kind of advice that she's talking about is not for you.
Erin: I think there is some truth in the reading in your genre to kind of understand conventions, but you don't need to.
Danikka: Oh, definitely.
Erin: Yeah, but you don't need to be reading exclusively indie romance on KU for two months before you even dive in.
Danikka: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: It's all about kind of thinking critically about the advice. Yeah. Rather than taking, you know, everything.
Erin: Taking it all without a, yeah.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah.
Erin: The other one was cover. The next one was covers. Don't be sliding into Leni Kaufman's DMs. Even though we all want to do it because their covers are stunning. You don't need to do it. You don't need to do it. But the other, but you do. But there are heaps of pre-made covers and there are loads of affordable cover designers. And what I thought was probably her most amusing piece of advice was for the love of God, do not do your cover by yourself. Unless you have some graphic design experience and like you understand book covers, don't do them by yourself. I, at the very start was like, I reckon I can, or like I knew I couldn't do it by myself, but I had an idea. And I was like, I reckon I can, you know, mock something up... Oh my God. It was horrendous. It was so bad. It was so bad. And that is why I'm very glad to have found the amazing Sam who has done my covers. But anyway, cover. So cover. So the two places you can spend money as a new indie author generally is editing and cover. Everything else, really, you can do by yourself.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's lots of nice to haves. But
Erin: totally, yeah.
Danikka: If you want to publish to a professional standard, you need the editing and the cover because those are the two things. The cover, and I would also argue the blurb.
Erin: Blurb, yes.
Danikka: Blurb. And I mean, the blurb is a much lower cost than the cover or the editing.
Like if you're going to spend money on the cover and the editing, then you should really be looking at spending money on the blurb or at least on learning how to do the blurb. Shout out to Jessie at Book Blurb Magic.
Erin: Jessie.
Danikka: I actually think this episode is coming out just after we've talked to her. This is the next episode. So if you listen to the last episode, then this is like, yeah, you'll already be all over that. So cover, blurb, editing. That's the three things.
Erin: They're the three things. Formatting? No, you can do that yourself. If you're on, if you're using Mac. Vellum. I can't remember what the one PC's got.
Danikka: Atticus.
Erin: I knew it was something with A.
Dankkia: Atticus is like the equivalent to, so Vellum is Apple only. Atticus is both Apple and Windows.
Erin: Yeah. And they just, well Vellum, I use Vellum. It's super easy to use. It's really user-friendly. There's some cute things in there. I probably haven't even gone in as deeply as I could have. But it does a lot of the work for you and it's amazing. And especially if you were planning on publishing multiple books, you pay for it once.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: And then you can publish literally as many books as you want.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: Not a subscription thing. You just pay and carry on. Yeah.
Danikka: Same with Atticus. And I have been really enjoying Atticus's mailing list. They send so many really helpful like tips and tricks and they've got like lots of videos on their YouTube.
Erin: Oh, okay. That's good.
Dankikka: And things like that as well. So that's been really good to follow along with as well.
Erin: Because that does seem, formatting honestly is does feel slightly daunting when you start.
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah. When you have like never looked at it before.
Erin: and you go, Oh my God!
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: But it was, yeah, it's not. It's not that daunting when you get started, I promise.
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah. Basically all the things that are going to affect readability. And you need to also decide like what kind of publishing you're going to be doing. And yeah, really finding an editor is like really probably the and the editing is the part that's going to take the longest.
Erin: Yes.
Danikka: I think we do have an episode about it before this.
Erin: About finding– Because it's not just about finding an editor. It's finding an editor who like you gel with. And who understands your voice and stuff.
Danikka: Yeah. I think that was going off on a tangent.
Erin: It was, yeah. Yeah. It was going off on a how to find an editor tangent. Have we recorded that episode already?
Danikka: That's what I was just thinking. I don't think we have, but we do need to. Because
Erin: We do
Danikka: Because we talk about it
Erin: A lot. Is that pretty much all? I feel like we've covered most of it.
Danikka: I feel like that was everything. So basically to wrap up, I think really there's no like, there is good and bad advice. Like for example, I think we still haven't recorded the episode about the person who spent 30k on self-publishing their first book.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: I have to check if that video is still up.
Erin: Because you do not need to spend that much money.
Danikka: But yeah, if that video is still up, I'll have to re-watch it. And then we'll record that episode. Because that was definitely bad advice. But basically, really you just need to establish the kind of publishing that you're looking to do. And I mean, basically, like I think our stance is always the same. You need to assess what pathway to published is right for you. You need to think about what your goals are, what you're wanting to do. And then take steps in that direction based on your financial situation, based on what your goals are for your work and what you want your career and published works to look like.
Erin: But also the benefit, it doesn't need to hinge on that first book as well.
Danikka: Exactly. Yeah.
Erin: Like, yeah.
DAnikka: Like, yeah. Definitely start out the way you mean to continue. But like, the first book is not the be all and end all either.
Erin: No.
Danikka: Like plenty of authors have had successes on like their 5th, 6th, 10th, 20th release. Like, yeah. Frigging hell, Rebecca Yarros had like 20 books published or whatever before Fourth Wing came out. And they were in a completely different genre to Fourth Wing. So like, don't even stress too much about it. The most important thing is to get started and get going and learn as you go. That is the most important thing.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: So yeah. I think that's all.
Erin: And ask questions. Because lots of other indie authors are happy to talk publishing.
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I love about this community is that really, like, honestly, the indie author community is so open and just willing to just welcome new people and teach and share resources. And so, yeah. Just if you're struggling, just say that. There's so many people out there willing to help. And if you do meet someone nasty, then they're not the right people. And the block button exists.
Erin: Yeah. That's why the block button exists.
Danikka: No. Yeah.
Erin: No, no.
Danikka: So yeah. I think that's everything we have for today's episode.
Erin: Yeah. But if you've had any good, bad or ugly advice, let us know.
Danikka: Yeah, we would love to hear it.
Erin: We want to hear it. We want to hear it all.
Danikka: Yeah. But yeah, we'll talk to you in the next episode.
Erin: Bye.
Danikka: Thank you for listening to The Snailed It podcast with Danikka and Erin brought to you by Authors Own Publishing, the home of indie publishing. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts and follow us on Instagram at Authors Own Publishing. Music brought to you by Mikkel with more details in the show notes.
Episode Description
This week on the Snailed It podcast, Danikka and Erin discuss viral advice for new authors, the good, the bad and the ugly. From DIY covers to releasing without editing, Danikka and Erin are here to tell you which advice to follow, and which to stay VERY far away from. What advice did you receive as a first time author, and where do you think it would land on the scale? We’d love to hear from you!
Brought to you by: Authors Own Publishing, Danikka Taylor, and Erin Thomson.
Danikka’s Details:
Website: www.authorsownpublishing.com
Instagram: @danikkataylor or @authorsownpublishing
Erin’s Details:
Website: www.erinthomsonauthor.com
Instagram: @authorerinthomson
Intro & Outro Music by Mikel & GameChops. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily reflect the views of Authors Own Publishing. Thanks for Listening!
