Episode 15: In Defence of Romance
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Danikka: Hey there, welcome to The Snailed It Podcast with Danikka and Erin, brought to you by Authors Own Publishing.
Erin: Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of The Snailed It Podcast with Danikka and Erin. Today we are talking romance because there's been a few things that we have both seen in the last week.
Danikka: Yeah, a few weeks.
Erin: A few weeks have just got us wanting to just have a little rage into the void, and here we are.
Danikka: Yes, and we are saying off the bat this is not a rant.
Erin: No
Danikka: This is like, yeah, this is righteous rage and we're like, this is in defense of romance readers and authors, like we're removing the shame and saying that romance has a place in the book industry that people are, for some reason, ignoring and we're saying it needs to stop. And…
Erin: And here we are.
Danikka: We have facts, we have figures
Erin: We’ve done research
Danikka: And we're here
Erin: And here we are.
Danikka: To set the record straight
Erin: Yeah, so this, well, there's, I mean, I will obviously defend romance, like I will die on that hill, obviously, you will also die on that hill, but this started because Danikka sent me some screenshots of a thread last week about romance books. Should we read them out? Do we want to read the entire thing? It's kind of long.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah, it is a bit long.
Erin: But there's some really good points. I think, hang on, I'll find my favorite point in them, but it was basically saying like, why are we, or we as romance readers, when you say that you like reading romance, you're immediately opening yourself up to that criticism of, but it always has the same kind of ending, but it's juvenile, it's limiting, it's predictable, it's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah.
Erin: And it just, I don't, well, one, everyone should just be able to read whatever the fuck they want and this shouldn't even be a topic of conversation, but two, like, why is us wanting to see a happy ending… Also, saying that it's all about women isn't even true, because there's plenty of fiction now out there, romance, that is not, one, just written by women or written for women. That is an aside.
Danikka: Queer romance is a thing and it is up and coming and it's needed.
Erin: So, but, but it could all, but it is true of, like, the queer romance as well. Like, we're, we're being, we're put down for wanting something that, like, has a happy ending and they get to have great sex. Like, I just don't understand why that's a bad thing, but we're expected to read books like Game of Thrones, where the women are constantly raped or, and or killed.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah.
Erin: And we're supposed to enjoy that because it's literary.
Danikka: So, there's a line on the first screenshot of the thread. I want to say I found this thread on Pinterest. I don't know where it came from originally because the link was broken, but the screenshot looks like it's probably Reddit. Most good conversations these days seem to happen on Reddit. But the line says, why is the concept of female characters being happy seen as less creative than female characters suffering? And then in brackets, it says, trust me, creating a world where women win in the end takes a lot more creativity and artistic vision, laughing my ass off. And I'm like, yes, and that is exactly the same for queer and POC characters as well. It takes a lot more vision and creativity to think about what would happen in a world where those people win and came out on top and were happy and safe. And case in point, Red, White and Royal fucking Blue. Like that rewrote the history of the 2016 fucking election had a female president with a son who was gay and he got together with the crown, well, not the crown prince, but the younger prince and they came out and they were celebrated and happy. Like they went through the struggle, but they came out happy at the end and everybody was happy for them.
Erin: And that is now being made, that is now getting a sequel on Prime
Danikka: Yes. And if that is not, I am sorry, if that is not a key indication of how much people not only love romance, but love queer characters being happy, like I'm sorry. And like that book wasn't even that groundbreaking. Like I had like issues with the story in that book, but I loved, I still loved it. Like I still was still happy to see the story. Like the writing doesn't need to be groundbreaking. And so that's what annoys me so much about people who criticize romance is they're like, it's not literary enough. And I'm like, that's not the point. That's not the point.
Erin: Yeah. It's not, it's not the point. Well, but also one, good writing doesn't have to be literary.
Danikka: No, it doesn't.
Erin: You can read, like there are loads of books. Like I love Sarah Adams books and she writes funny so well.
Danikka: Yes.
Erin: Like that's not easy.
Danikka: No, it's not having a sense of humor. It's not easy and not.
Erin: No. And putting that into your characters and putting it into your, like the world, that's really hard. So it's like the whole thing. Okay. I've, I've too many thoughts on this, which is why I can't like. Yeah.
Danikka: But anyway, so that was probably like, that's the first point off of that one. And then another one that I really loved is no, uh, no one calls out James Patterson for writing another formulaic thriller in which a woman is horrifically killed after getting laid. And then some man solves her murder every damn time. But Hey, those romance novels where women and then insert queer or POC characters get happy endings is so limiting. Hey,
Erin: Like, really?
Danikka: Like realizing how common it is for female characters to be punished for on the sex page with death was a big part of me embracing the romance genre. Um, once I noticed it, I couldn't unnotice it. It's everywhere. A woman having sex in literature or non-ro, um, or non-romance genre fiction is the literal literary equivalent of a red shirt on Star Trek. Um, cause in Star Trek, the red shirts always die in case people haven't watched Star Trek.
Erin: So why, why are we being criticized for wanting to have sex and live?
Danikka: And live?
Erin: Like, why is that? Why is that not a thing that we should want to read or enjoy or whatever?
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: I just
Danikka: And then I thought that that's really interesting that in the thread, because we have read the thread before you went and did the data research, uh, in the thread thrillers are brought up and then in the data research.
Erin: In the data research that I found it says, so there's two things. So on this website, it was saying that the most popular fiction category was young adult followed by fantasy, children's fiction, lit fiction, science fiction, and thrillers. And then romance placed nine out of 10 on that list. So ninth out of 10 in what is apparently the most popular.
Danikka: And this is like a survey that they sent out and got.
Erin: However, when we then go down to the genre fiction categories that generate the most sales, romance 1.44 billion with a B dollars.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: And I believe this was in either 2021 or 2022. So, and then the next category is crime and mystery with 728 million. So the romance category outsells crime and mystery two to one. And yet we are told that it's fluffy juvenile rubbish.
Danikka: Yeah. So this shame story around the romance has got people so ashamed of the stories that they enjoy. So ashamed of just wanting to read a story where they are represented living happily,
Erin: Happily.
Danikka: And not having to read stories where people who look and sound and live like them are punished and killed that they can't even admit to themselves that they like those stories. So when they sent a survey to ask what their favorite books are, they don't take the genre that they spend the most money and time on. And so the data is just like completely skewed and it just makes me so mad and upset. It just makes me so mad.
Erin: Me too.
Danikka: And like, yeah, it's just, it's really sad.
Erin: Yeah. It just, yeah. Like, and it's, it's just so unfair for all of those people who, and it's not even about, because lots of people would be like, oh, just because people don't want to walk out with books that have smut in them. Look, a lot of romance books have smut in them, mine included, but there are heaps of ones that don't. There are loads of closed door. There are loads of clean. I don't like that title, but that's all you've got. There are like, there's so many sweet romance, what it like hallmark in a book romance. There's so many of them that have no sex on the page.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: People are allowed to enjoy that too. People are allowed to enjoy the endorphin boost of first kisses and happily ever afters.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: Why is that a bad thing?
Danikka: Yeah, absolutely. And like good segue, it's not just about the sex. That was on the next screenshot. That is a key element, but in a romance novel, the heroine gets to be cared for in a way that she would normally care for everybody else. It's wish fulfilled, that her partner will do the emotional labor, spend a great deal of time thinking about her or sacrifice her desires. And I would just say in the thread, they're using her because they're speaking about women. But I would also say that this goes for anyone in any kind of representation or presentation that they are feeling neglected in life or, and like most people in marginalized groups are feeling neglected in life. But they spend a great deal of time thinking about her or sacrifice her desires or sacrifice, he will sacrifice his desires or his reputation to be with her. Spend days nursing her back to health or risking his life to save hers.
And I would actually just say one of my favorite, I watch a lot of BL TV shows and my favorite BL is a Thai BL called Love in the Air. And it has that exact storyline where it's this rich kid who falls in love with this younger boy or not younger boy, I think they're the same age, but this poorer boy who hates him because he's stuck up and he has to basically convince him and then he gets sick and he cares for him. And he's still like, I hate you, why are you here, go away. But he's still just looking after him even though he hates him. That's just the cutest thing ever.
Erin: That caretaker trope.
Danikka: And he buys an Uber Eats subscription and sends him food all the time because he's a heartthrob.
Erin: Cuteness. Yeah, another part that I really liked was they were talking about, they were referencing Smart Bitches Trashy Books, which analyze romance novels and they talk about the grovel, which is the turning point near the climax of the book where the leading man says, in effect, I hurt you, I had my reasons, they don't make it right. I'm devastated that I hurt you and I will do whatever it takes to make it okay again. Leaving you is completely on the table, even though I find the prospect horrific. And that's a very important fantasy to have your feelings, your pain be made so absolutely central to the narrative, to someone else's world. You could call it a power fantasy, but I don't think that's exactly right. It's a significance fantasy. A romance story is a story in which the woman is the most significant damn thing in the book.
Danikka: Yeah
Erin: And when you think of it like that, you realize why some people are very, very threatened by it. And it's true. I just find myself asking why constantly when we're looking at these things. Why is that so surprising that a woman wants to read a book or whoever?
Danikka: Yeah, a woman or a queer person.
Erin: Why does anyone wanting to read a book where they are at the center of it, why should they be punished or looked down on or whatever for wanting that?
Danikka: Yeah, I would just say a woman, a plus size person, a person of color, a queer person, anyone who is in a marginalized group who is represented in a romance book as living happily ever after and is enjoying it. Why is it such a scary and bad thing that we need to be shamed out of enjoying it?
Erin: Yeah, you shouldn't be shamed. Just enjoy it. Even if there is a naked person chest on the cover. Just do it.
Danikka: Yeah, and we're not saying that there's no problematic things in the romance genre.
Erin: Not at all. There's a lot.
Danikka: There's a lot and we're not wanting to yuck anybody's yum, but there are some definitely harmful things that are in some sub-genres of romance genre.
Erin: But again, if that is your thing, then you go.
Danikka: Absolutely.
Erin: You read that. Absolutely. Like, yeah, why choose mafia, daddy, dom romance? Like, just do it. If that's what you want to read, then read it.
Danikka: Stalker.
Erin: Stalker, bully, or like they freak me out, but if that is your thing, read it. And look, maybe don't, it might be hard to talk about, you know, around the dinner table at family dinner, but if someone asks you what you're reading, tell them.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: Don't say, oh, um, oh, just tell them because they asked. They may not ask again, but if they do, like, put it out there because it's enough. We've had enough of the shame.
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
Erin: Enough
Danikka: And you're allowed to like what you like.
Erin: Exactly.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: Yeah. No one's criticizing people reading James Patterson novel after James Patterson novel, are they?
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: Number 27 really hit different
Danikka: Yeah, exactly. And no one's criticizing people for enjoying James R. R. Martin writing his rape and incest, like, yeah.
Erin: George R. R. Martin. So, yeah. And no one's like, no one's criticizing any, I haven't read any Brandon Sanderson, but no one's criticizing Brandon Sanderson readers for reading too much Brandon Sanderson. Like, it's always, it's always the ones.
Danikka: It's always what women are reading and it's always written by women.
Erin: Yeah. I like the way that people just kind of put all of like Sarah J Maas and all of those kind of books into fairy smut Yeah. That's not, yes, there are people having sex in those books. That is far from what they're all about.
Danikka: Yes, exactly. And actually, I think like one of my friends who is not a book reader at all, like she messaged me out of the blue last weekend, like this 10 minute long voice note. And it was all about how she'd been really stressed. She’s just gone back to teaching after having a two-year break where her and her partner went traveling and she's just come back to work. Her partner's gonna start a FIFO job and she's been really stressed and she picked up Fourth Wing and she over the course of two weeks read Fourth Wing and Iron Flame back to back and it was the first book that she's read really like and properly enjoyed since she read Twilight in her early 20s and she sent me a 10-minute long voice note just saying how much she absolutely loved it and she couldn't believe how much I read and like how could I read so many books and like recover from a hangover.
Erin: Recover from that hangover?
Danikka: Yeah it was the first time she'd had a book hangover since she finished Twilight and she was like so she loved the characters so much that she got to the end of the voice note and she was crying because she was like I just don't want to not be with these characters anymore.
Erin: Yes.
Danikka: But she the whole time she was like I don't want to admit to anyone that I love these books because I can tell that they're not literary books I feel like they're written for juveniles like that's literally what she said to me and I was like I felt just like my heart break a little bit because I have been quite criticizing of Fourth Wing because of some of the ways that it's written even though I really enjoyed it and that made me it actually made me feel really bad for criticizing Fourth Wing because I'm like people do love it and I was like yeah I like can't switch my editor brain off sometimes and like she's asking me like how how how do you enjoy books still as an editor and that like I was like yeah well it's true like it's a whole different conversation but then I like it made me really stop for a minute and I was like yeah I need to just like get off my high horse sometimes about books and be like you like I it just made me so happy because she picked up a book and enjoyed it and she's literally she just finished Iron Flame and at the end of it made her just as angry as it made all of us but she still loved it so much that literally the next week it gave her such good escapism from all of the stress of her work and her life that she started Fourth Winging again from beginning
Erin: Oh no way!
Danikka: And just oh no way that's amazing I'm sorry but if you will not get that from a thriller where people are dying you will not get that kind of stress relief and escapism and just like
just break from your life
Erin: I mean you might some people might and that's the other thing right like it's it's all fiction so obviously like and there's also that thing of everyone saying well doesn't it set up unrealistic unrealistic expectations um so the people who read them have then unrealistic expectations for future partners I'm sorry but is it an unrealistic oh, she's she's losing her mind
Danikka: I literally I there was a reel on my Instagram that I didn't share to my stories the other day because the way that you started it I hate how when you share reels on Instagram you can't pick the part of the reel that you
Erin: yeah yeah yeah because
Danikka: because there's longer reels now but on that um there's this guy on Instagram who I follow his handle is bdc carpenter I can tag him in the show notes but he is a like body positive personal trainer who is like chronic illness aware and all these things but he and his wife recently got married and their videos went viral because for some reason everyone decided he was too ugly to marry her and it was just
Erin: The internet is horrible
Danikka: It was just really horrible but basically like the way that everyone's always like romance books set up too high expectations for future partners and all these things because like you're about to say and I interrupted you because I got too excited about it's unrealistic for people to want emotionally intelligent partners who consider their needs and all of these things
Erin: And it's if the expectation is too high that you can have some emotional intelligence be put first be taken care of like haven't where you're equal footing in a relationship and have good sex like how is that unrealistic
Danikka: Yeah how is that unrealistic and so
Erin: And why should women not or any or people of color or people why should anyone not want that in a relationship
Danikka: Exactly why should we settle for anything less
Erin: Anything else
Danikka: Yeah so anyway this poor guy who is actually quite attractive has been
Erin: Not according to the internet
Danikka: Yeah has been doxxed because he's married this really pretty korean woman and he's a white guy so he's too ugly to be with this pretty korean woman
Erin: But also you were just saying off whatever we want to call it he learned his wedding speech in korean yeah he's korean like that is that is adorable and that is book boyfriend material if ever I ever heard it
Danikka: Yeah exactly so he left england to be with her so he moved from wherever he was living sold his house everything went over to live with her before they'd ever even really spent any time together like built their relationship together like learnt his wedding speech in korean, spent hours and hours and hours practicing it and then he ends the video with he says she finds acts of service way more romantic than physical gifts so i knew that learning the speech was the best thing i could ever do for her to show how dedicated i was to her and be the husband that she deserves and then he says i know it's super easy to troll strangers on the internet flippantly saying he is ugly she's only married marrying down because he's a white dude she's way out of his league etc and although these types of comments don't actually upset me i do think it's a bit of a shame that so many people miss the point of the video because some guys would benefit from spending less time being sour to strangers on the internet and more time treating people they care about really really well because then maybe if they did this they might also be lucky enough to marry someone they think is out of their league. Like if you just stopped being assholes and actually thought about being a nice human and stopped thinking you're a nice person and were actually a nice person then maybe you wouldn't think that the book standard than romance books were too high like yeah it's just yeah it's not that hard
Erin: No and it's not people and they it's like yes there's grand gestures in them and all of that but not in all of them
Danikka: Not in all of them
Erin: That's not that's not what the readers are there for you're not there we're not there for the grand gesture. You're there for what that means it means that something has happened they have broken up because we all know that that tends to happen and then they come back together and he says i'm really fucking sorry you mean more to me than my pride does, I want to make it right.
And this is as a slight tangent I am not a third act breakup hater I enjoy the third act breakup because you get that like bit after that they're like stronger than they were before.
Danikka: Yeah absolutely
Erin: And they like yeah one of them's messed up and it doesn't always yeah whoever's messed up and then they've come back and gone I'm sorry, I was a shithead yeah I don't want to be shit anymore.
Danikka: I actually don't really have any tropes that I hate if they're written well I think if people have tropes that they really hate it's because they've been maybe like reading them just like only like written to market or something like that like
Erin: Yeah true just like just had or you've just had a bad one
Danikka: You've had a bad one that hasn't been edited or something like that and it's been quite contrived
Erin: Or even i think some books that can be well edited and well written sometimes you just don't vibe with them like you just don't vibe with the characters like and that's fine yeah but yeah don't write off the whole thing but there does seem to be a bit of hate at the moment with the third act breakup and i see lots of people like in the tropey things like oh it's got this and it's got that lots of them saying no third act breakup and i always find myself thinking when i see that where is the conflict then
Danikka: Yeah yeah
Erin: We've gone on a tangent yeah but we'll bring it back that's another that's another episode where we talk third act breakup
Danikka: We can have another episode we can have a romance writing episode but yes
Erin: But so back to the point yeah why we I we're just we're just shamed for enough things oh that was what i was going to say as well, people also seem surprised that romance readers enjoy the happy ending and the predictability the world is on fire yeah like everything is fucked
Danikka: Yeah yeah
Erin: Like literally like we lived through a three-year pandemic everyone just acts like it's gone it's not there's plenty of covid still in the community everywhere yeah and if you don't think it is you're probably in denial because it's still there we've just all stopped testing for it let's be honest. But it's there still like well in Australia alone 31 women have died already this year sorry they haven't died they've been murdered this year alone. Well at the time of recording it's probably a lot more by the time it comes out, so it's like why why are we being shamed for reading a book where people live happily ever after whether they're married and have babies or not i should as a caveat because they don't need that to be happily ever after. Why is that why is enjoying that a bad thing when everything else is like fucked?
Dannika: Yeah
Erin: And that's, I think I've seen a lot of people saying like yes I want the happily ever after my anxiety has enough trouble with the real world, I need to know where this book is going like yeah obviously anyway
Danikka: Yeah so in defense of romance, it is valid you are allowed to enjoy it stop saying in anonymous surveys that you don't enjoy it
Erin: Or not even or that it's your third or fourth preference when really it's your first one just say it's your first one yeah just but also it's not your fault that you feel shamed it's everyone else
Danikka: Oh absolutely it's so it's the
Erin: Also don't feel bad about it around it yeah it's yeah
Danikka: It's it's no shame for your shame
Erin: No shame for your shame
Danikka: This is us just giving you permission to lift off that weight to like
Erin: To be like you know what I don't have to say fantasy first or ya first or crime first. I can say romance and then crime yeah or whatever
Danikka: Exactly and I actually really appreciated that about Lauren Searson-Patrick's post on instagram the other day she is like a romantasy writer and she put in her order of genre preferences she put romantasy, romance and then fantasy and I was like yes yes, Lauren
Erin: Yeah and it yeah I could go on and on
Danikka: Yeah yeah
Erin: We could talk about this for literally hours
Danikka: Literally hours yeah we stan romance romance all the way yeah all the representation all the diversity we want it all and we all deserve happy endings
Erin: And anyone that tells you otherwise, fuck ‘em frankly this is the mood i'm in at the end of this
Danikka: The romance genre is holding up the publishing industry by double on the next
Erin: Two to one people two to one. I was shocked at that actually I didn't I, I wasn't sure like I knew that it was a high earning genre but I did not expect it to be that
Danikka: I knew I knew that it was the highest earning genre I just didn't know by how much
Erin: Yeah yeah
Danikka: I'm just really excited by that so yeah I think that's pretty much everything we have to say yeah and that and this is just
Erin: I mean it's not we could go on but that's probably all you guys need to hear
Danikka: If I just like sheer chance like the data on the podcast because it's still early days of the episodes have been going up at the moment but but if I sheer chance you're an indie bookshop owner and are listening to this podcast
Erin: This is what we noticed as well
Danikka: Yeah so that was also the start of this and like how I kind of came across this thread was we went to a few indie bookshops last time we were hanging out and we found in one indie bookshop we found like two romance titles and in another one there was like a very small shelf of them this is our plea please stock romance books indie bookshops you
Erin: And if it's only the big like trad ones fine for the moment we'd like it to be self-published ones as well but we'll start with trad
Danikka: We'll start with trad that's fine self-publish would be great but yeah but like
Erin: Get some Sarah Adams in there get some Allison Cochrane like let's go yeah get some Casey Mcquiston come on
Danikka: Please please because
Erin: Please please please
Danikka: There was like shelves and shelves and shelves of non-fiction and um just memoir and no romance and that made me sad it was yeah i was that was for the first time in a really long time i'd been into bookshops and not bought books
Erin: Same
Danikka: Like I found nothing to buy and I felt really bad because it was two indie bookshops I wanted to buy books and I had nothing so i was very sad
Erin: Oh I did buy i bought a bunch but that were all for my kids. Because I had because they had a great kid section so they had a massive kid section and this is another fantasy and the fantasy sci-fi section was really small too
Danikka: that was a strange fantasy sci-fi section was tiny in both of those shops as well yeah which I
Erin: And that's also a huge yeah
Danikka: Anyway anyway but yes we're going on another tangent we'll go we'll let you go but we hope you enjoyed this in defense romance episode and we love you romance readers and authors and if you have any recs for us please let us know because we we love them we'll talk to you in the next episode
Erin: Bye
Danikka: Thank you for listening to this brought to you by Authors Own don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts and follow us on instagram at Authors Own publishing music brought to you by Mikkel with more details in the show notes
Episode Description
Strap yourself in, and prepare for some righteous rage, because Danikka and Erin are ready to die on the hill of romance. Armed with facts and figures, they’re digging into why readers love the romance genre—spoiler: it’s not just about the smut—despite the stigma that still surrounds it.
Please note, this episode discusses topics that some listeners may find distressing related to trauma, women's safety, mental health, and the world we live in. Listeners should exercise personal discretion and prioritise their well-being when deciding whether this content is right for them.
Brought to you by: Authors Own Publishing, Danikka Taylor, and Erin Thomson.
Danikka’s Details:
Website: www.authorsownpublishing.com
Instagram: @danikkataylor or @authorsownpublishing
Erin’s Details: Website: www.erinthomsonauthor.com
Instagram: @authorerinthomson
Intro & Outro Music by Mikel & GameChops.
Other references and resources for this episode include:
www.instagram.com/bdccarpenter
wordsrated.com/fiction-books-sales
bookadreport.com/book-market-overview-authors-statistics-facts
www.tonerbuzz.com/blog/book-and-reading-statistics
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily reflect the views of Authors Own Publishing. Thanks for Listening!
