Episode 10: You should be reading indie books: A Rant
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Danikka: Hey there, welcome to the Snailed It podcast with Danikka and Erin, brought to you by Authors Own Publishing.
Danikka: Welcome back to the Snailed It podcast with Danikka and Erin. Today we've already kind of started the episode, before we've started the episode as usual, but Erin sent me a bookish account that you found.Erin: I didn't even know if I sent you the account, I just screenshotted the caption. It was someone that I had recently followed and I didn't know much about them, and they did a reintroduction post. And in the reintroduction post, there was one particular line that I went, what?
Danikka: And we'll read the line for your benefit, because by the time this comes out, that post is going to be long history anyway. The line is, and I just, I'm reading it and I'm just gobsmacked reading it, like we're just jumping straight into this right away because I'm just so angry. I think indie books have reduced the quality of novels and that is more concerning than AI.
Erin: Let's all take a moment to let that sink in.
Danikka: Just appreciate that for a minute.
Erin: And I obviously, immediately, I read this, screenshotted it, highlighted the section and sent it to Danikka and went, what?
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: And this is, having said this, I read this comment while I was in the midst of reading, or maybe as I just finished Kate Schumacher's The Call of a Sea, which is undoubtedly one of the best books I've ever read in my life and is indie. So I was like, what books is this person reading?
Danikka: Like it's just such a broad generalisation as well. Like I have read some really crappy traditionally published books, but I'm not blaming indie authors for bringing down that quality. I'm like, if anything, I'm blaming the publishers for not doing their job properly.
Erin: I agree. And that's, I feel, I occasionally feel like that when I'm reading since Sarah J Maas. I'm like, someone should have taken the red pen out a little bit more forcefully and made you edit your dumping exposition.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: You know?
Danikka: And like comparing indie authors to AI and saying AI is better than indie authors.
Erin: Have you read AI? Like, it is not. It is not anything good.
Danikka: Not only that, they're ripping off indie authors and putting it into the AI. Like, I just, I'm just speechless. I'm just speechless. Like, I can't, I can't like, you sent this to me the other day and I've been thinking about it every day. Which is why we're doing this rant because I'm like, I'm working on some amazing books at the moment and like, your books are awesome. And you were talking about, oh, who was it you were talking about? You were talking about Kate, but then there's another author that you read and you were like, I really, really love their books. Who was it? I don't know. Anyway, like I'm working on a mystery at the moment. I just finished working on an Australian YA book. I just finished working on Kate's second book to the one that you just like were exclaiming over and she's blown my mind three times over. And like, I read the first draft of it and it blew my mind. And now like, she's had it go to betas and come back with even better developments than I could have come up with myself, which is why I don't do dev editing for Kate, because her brain is just like next level. And she's chosen indie publishing because she knows that Trab Publishers won't appreciate what she's doing.
Erin: But that is bringing down the quality of novels? Like, no, it's not. But this is also, it should be pointed out that this is not an isolated comment by any means. Like there is, and I feel like it is better now, but there is kind of a bit of a general thing of indies not being as good as trad, generally. Because you've settled for being indie, I'm doing inverted quotation marks, settled for being indie because you couldn't get a deal. And some people might have like pivoted to indie because they couldn't get a deal or it was taking too long. But it doesn't like settling is not, none of us is settling.
Danikka: No, no. And like, I have known authors who have gotten traditional publishing contracts and have pulled from the contract during the production process because they were sick of being mistreated by the publisher. And this isn't a small publisher, it's a big five publisher and have gone and indeed instead, like I didn't work on their books, but I've talked to them about it. Like I just, and actually one of the earliest, so when I was still at uni, one of the earliest writing events that I went to had a panel of alumni authors from the uni and they'd come to do a talk. And there was a fan, there was a fantasy writer there. I can't remember her name because I was like, uh, how old would I have been? I would never even been 18 because I was 18. I turned 18 in Canada. So I would have been like 17 or actually it could have been post-Canada. So I could have been like 21. I don't remember. But my memory is not good. Younger than now. And she was saying that she'd published 12 books with a trad publisher and was never going to publish another book with a trad publisher again. She said, every book I write from now on is going to be indie published because I make lots more money. I can promote it the way I want to promote it. I get to choose the cover. I get to decide what stays in the book and what comes out of the book. Like there was just, she had only done traditional publishing because indie publishing, when she first started writing, cause she was an older lady, was not really a thing. Like she started writing before the internet.
Erin: So it was like, yeah, literally like printing books and then walking to all the bookshops like, please buy my book.
Danikka: Yeah, exactly. So like, if anything, I think indie publishing has improved the quality of novels overall. And if you are reading purely traditional published books at the moment, which looking at this person's feed, they are reading mostly trad published books. I would not be blaming the indie authors for the reduction in quality of the novels. I would be blaming the trad publishers who are pumping books out too quickly and not working on them properly because they can't keep up with how fast indie authors are producing their books. Yeah. So I think it says more about the flailing trad publishing industry than it does about indie authors. And I will just never, ever, ever forgive anyone comparing any artist or saying any work produced independently by an artist is worse or scarier than AI. Like your favourite author could be right now having their books ripped off and put through AI so that then AI can write books and corporate companies can make money off of the art of people who have slaved hours and hours over these things. Like how can you, how can you claim, and like this is a bookstagrammer, so how can you claim to love books and to read books and to like, even though like, and this is another rant that we could have probably part of this rant anyway, like because we were talking about another comment that she made in her thing was that she never gushes over any books that she reads even though she enjoys them. So she prides herself, and this is something I hate, she prides herself in never giving books five-star reviews.
Erin: And I just, if you don't, I don't understand that. Like if you have criticism, you can like a book and have criticisms of it. I really liked Fourth Wing. But I'm still gonna say I really enjoyed that book. I loved that book. Like I'm not gonna, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. What's wrong with writing a gushy review?
Danikka: Like yeah, yeah, like there's a real person behind these books. And like yes, thankfully she does say she never tags the author in her reviews and thank fuck because like she'd be ruining people's days left right and center.
Erin: Yeah, it's, it, I don't, I don't understand it. I don't understand it. But as you say, this comment has been popping up in my head like on the daily. This is currently my Roman Empire. I'm thinking about it.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, I just like, and the more concerning part, which is what you said before we started recording, is that all the comments on her post, yeah, the comment section, not a single person was there in defense of indie authors. They were all there just being like, oh my God, we love you so much. Like yes, you speak the truth. And like, and I think, I just
Erin: I think it's, it's their shtick to like have that no filter review style, which is fine.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: But I think there's a difference between no filter and being kind of an asshole. And you don't need to be an asshole about something that someone has spent a lot of time on. And granted, you're not tagging people, but that doesn't mean that that's not going to eventually get back to them anyway. I don't know. I don't know. There's just a lot of things that we've been discussing that I'm just like, what?
Danikka: I'm just like, I'm just like, why? It's classist in a way is what it is. But also like, like you said, that tall poppy syndrome, people in Australia are just never happy.
Erin: Well, I think it's just that whole,
Danikka: to be happy for other people.
Erin: We have trouble like just seeing someone succeed and not just be able to go good for you and not, oh, but like it.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: And it's so insidious and horrible really, but it's such a, oh, well you don't want someone getting too big for their boots or whatever. Like it's, yeah, it is such an Australian thing and I really don't like it.
Danikka: Yeah. It's just ingrained in our culture and I really hope that we're slowly changing it, but yeah, it's just really sad to see people still buying into it and just like, cause she's reviewed a lot of really big books. And I know sometimes when you're reading big books, the temptation is to bash them a bit. Like I am guilty of a little bit of fourth wing bashing, but that I'm not bashing the author because when I read books like that, I think the author has done a lot of work. It's the publisher who's let them down.
Erin: Well, you have editor brain on too, like what you would change as an editor.
Danikka: Yeah, exactly. So like, and I'm never bashing a book. Like I have such huge admiration for anyone who can finish a book. Like I'm an editor and I do try to write, but I've still, I think we did it. We did a podcast episode about it. I've never finished anything. Like, so if you can even finish a book, you're already like top shelf in my mind. Like you're amazing because like, that's something I haven't done. And I'm not going to sit back here and judge your work when I can't put my money where my mouth is. Like, yes, I'm in the job of publishing books, but like, I'm never going to bash someone who's done something amazing.
Erin: No. Yeah. And it's, it has that, like, it's just that thing, like in the back of my head of, in the back of my head, I always have that, like, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. But that's not super relevant for reviews because some people need those criticisms. Like critical reviews are important and they're not for the author, so they're for other readers. But yeah, it can't just be, oh, this didn't vibe with me. It's like, well, that's not, that's, that's a you problem, but that didn't vibe with you.
Danikka: Yeah. It's not helpful for other readers deciding either.
Erin: If there was massive plot holes, you know, all that stuff, that's what, I don't know. We're going around in circles. I don't know what to say because I'm still gobsmacked about the whole thing.
Danikka: Yeah. No. In short, indie authors are amazing. AI is dangerous for artists and art makers and we need to continue to fight. Like, I am so glad that the Writers Strike in America for the Writers Guild was successful and they got protections in their contracts. I've seen some amazing posts. I think Kate posted one the other day, but I did see another one from another indie author in America about things that we can put in the just like the legal sections of our books when we publish them to protect ourselves when it comes to AI. It's discovered that our books have been used to train AI. We have legal standing. I think there's amazing progress being made and there's some brilliant, brilliant indie authors out there and there's some brilliant trad published authors out there.
Erin: We don't need to divide. Books are books.
Danikka: No, like indie authors and indie publishing has become a thing because it's democratising the environment.
Erin: It's not going anywhere.
Danikka: And yes, we can talk about this on having a bit of a monopoly, but eventually monopolies do break down. Like, I don't know when it's going to happen, I don't know how it's going to happen, but the democratisation of the book market is only a good thing. And it's giving more platforms and space for POC writers, for marginalised writers, for LGBTQ stories and writers. Like, I don't remember reading a single gay traditionally published book really until indie publishing made it a thing and then trad publishing picked it up. And like, this is another whole rant I could probably do on another episode about how trad publishing is now just riding off of the success of many indie authors and deciding to deign to publish them after they've done the hard work of building their own audiences. So, and like, this is documented. I could go and find a whole list of authors that this has happened to. One really popular one that you could talk about is The Atlas Six. That was indie published first, got a massive following and then was picked up by, I can't remember who it was picked up by.
Erin: Who was that? The Atlas Six?
Danikka: Tor. Tor. Olivia Blake. Olivia Blake wrote The Atlas Six. So she wrote her first book, indie published it, and then it was picked up by Tor. And Tor is one that does it a lot, actually, with indie fantasy books.
Erin: Ah, interesting.
Danikka: Because there was another, Rebecca Thorn, on TikTok. She got picked up by Tor. And then I can't remember if Travis Baldry, which is Legends and Lattes, I can't remember if he indie published first and was picked up, or if he was published straight through Tor. But yeah, lots of, lots of indie authors are doing a lot of hard work building their platforms and they're being picked up by tried publishers after having already done the hard work.
Erin: And look, a lot of people, that might be their goal. Like they might be using it as a stepping stone, which is amazing. Like that, and you're showing them that you can build a following, you can write a book, and you can do it by yourself if you need to.
Danikka: Like, yeah, yeah. And Rebecca Thorn was always very open about the fact that that's what she was doing. Like, quite early on, she got herself an agent who specialized in finding tried publishers for indie authors. So, and I'm pretty sure that's how, I'd have to go back to her videos, but I remember her announcing that she'd gotten an agent and that she was looking for tried publishing contracts. Yeah. And she was always very open about the fact that that's what she was doing. But she's a massive advocate for indie authors. And even though she's now traditionally published, she's not now saying, oh, well, this is how you should be doing it. She's still promoting other indie authors and believing in indie authors, even though she's now got a traditional publishing contract. Like there's no, we're all in this together. We're all authors, we're all publishers, and we're all trying to get books in the hands of readers. Like, my problem is with the corporate greed. It's not with the individuals in those areas. So, yeah, I don't know. It just, I'm angry about AI and I'm angry about people who just say stupid shit.
Erin: On the internet. Like this. And don't, yeah.
Danikka: Yeah. But no, that's, that's our rant for today.
Erin: Welcome to the first of Danikka's rant series. I look forward
Danikka: where Erin sends me something stupid you found on the internet.
Erin: I look forward to future rants. Yeah. If you've got anything. No, there will be more rants. If you've got anything.
Danikka: Yes. Send me, send me the things to do a rant on because I will. I love ranting, but yeah. Anyway, thank you for listening to this episode and can't wait to talk to you in the next one. Bye.
Erin: Bye.
Danikka: Thank you for listening to this episode, brought to you by Authors Own Publishing, the home of indie publishing. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts and follow us on Instagram at Authors Own Publishing. Music brought to you by with more details in the show notes.
Episode Description
Do you love a good rant? So do Danikka and Erin, and today they're ranting about a social media post that had nothing good to say about indie books. Jump right in and listen now!
Brought to you by: Authors Own Publishing, Danikka Taylor, and Erin Thomson.
Danikka’s Details:
Website: www.authorsownpublishing.com
Instagram: @danikkataylor or @authorsownpublishing
Erin’s Details:
Website: www.erinthomsonauthor.com
Instagram: @authorerinthomson
Intro & Outro Music by Mikel & GameChops. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily reflect the views of Authors Own Publishing. Thanks for Listening!
