Episode 9: Beta Readers 101
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Danikka: Hey there, welcome to the Snailed It podcast with Danikka and Erin, brought to you by Authors Own Publishing.
Erin: Hi everyone, welcome back to the Snailed It podcast with Danikka and Erin. Today we are talking about beta readers.
Danikka: Yes.
Erin: And everything that is encompassed with that topic.
Danikka: Because, yeah, I don't know, it's come up a lot with my clients recently and I've just seen a lot of videos about it where people are like either struggling to find beta readers, or they don't know how to process the feedback, or they're getting too much feedback and making too many changes to their book when they maybe don't need to.
Erin: Yep. Well, first of all, we should say, so for those of you, anyone who doesn't know, a beta reader is someone who reads an early version of your book. So—
Danikka: Yes.
Erin: Not the first readers. So, if you've got like a critique partner, I don't know if they're really called alpha readers anymore, I'll say, but alpha readers and critique partners will sort of read chapters as you're writing, basically. And it's often like reciprocal.
Whereas beta readers don't read until you're finished. And yeah, will go through the whole thing and give you feedback. And you, when I've sent mine off, you sometimes need to tell them exactly what you want.
I've done betas for other people, and some people are just like, have a read and tell me what you think. And other people send you a whole list of like character stuff, plot stuff, like all the things. So, they've got really specific things that they want you to be looking out for when you're reading.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: Yeah. So, just a little bit.
Danikka: So, yeah, no, that's a really good explanation because I think like I haven't worked with betas myself. Like I've only worked with it by proxy when I've been working with my authors and they get beta feedback when we're working together. Because I don't know if other editors really do it.
Like I'd be really interested to maybe talk to an editor on here one day who works really differently to me. Because I've kind of just been like, I don't like working like that. So, I'm going to work this way.
And it's worked for me and my clients. So, that's been good. But it'd be interesting to talk to someone who works differently.
But I really enjoy having authors working with betas like after I've done a developmental edit. And then when we're doing like the next stage, having betas read it. And then we can kind of tweak it as we need.
Because I think the more brains that can look at it, the better. And it gives you a really good insight into how readers who pick your book up cold once it's published are going to perceive the book. So, they're incredibly useful and definitely a part of the editing process that should not be skipped.
I think they're invaluable and yeah, definitely a really important part of the process. But there is like lots of pitfalls that come up that I've kind of noticed. And part of it is a lot of times people will get just like their friends to beta read.
Which is great if you know your friends. Like, for example, with you and me, I know we have really similar reading tastes. So, like I would get you to beta for me. Because I'd be like, oh yeah, no, Erin will be my target audience anyway. So, that'll be fine.
But like my partner Rhi, I probably wouldn't get to beta read because does not read similar books to me at all. And they would pick at things that my ideal readers wouldn't pick at. Because they just don't read the same kind of books and don't read the kind of book that I'm writing. So, I think that's like a first kind of pitfall that comes up.
And then like there's the whole kind of navigating the feedback when it comes through and learning to see what the difference between a theme of feedback with all of your beta readers is versus the individual personal comments of the beta readers. And like how can you find the feedback that's helpful and learn to ignore the feedback that's not. So, I guess because I haven't worked with beta readers, I really wanted to talk about this with you.
Because you're up to, we've just kind of almost finished betas for book three now for Strings Attached. And yeah, I'm interested to know what your beta process is. What are you found works over the three books?
And if you've got any tips for people looking for beta readers or working through the beta feedback. So, I think I asked you earlier, I said are the beta readers for Strings Attached the same beta readers that you had for The Wedding Planners?
Erin: No, they're not.
And well, to that like, it's better if you don't get your friends and family to read it if they don't read the genre that you write in. Because your beta is really, and I think you said this in one of your like pitfalls of beta readers or all of the things, that they really, if possible, need to be readers of your genre. Because if they're not readers of your genre, then like you said about Rhi, they're just going to find, not fault, but sort of make comments on things that someone who does read that genre would not even think about.
Like they would just move over whatever that thing is. So, that is probably the main thing. And so, when I started The Wedding Planners, I had only been like, had an author Instagram for a little while.
I was still kind of making connections with people. I maybe hadn't met or connected with, however you want to say it, a bunch of readers in the romance genre. And I sort of, I'd found a few who I still like talk to now. And I just wasn't sure what to expect when I was choosing beta readers. And so, when I did beta readers for Wedding Planners, I put out a post saying, I'm looking for beta readers. Would you be interested?
Whereas with Five Dates and with Strings Attached, I approached people specifically and said, would you be willing to beta for me? And they were either authors or romance readers. So, I think that made a real difference.
And also, I had, when I did it for Wedding Planners, I got beta feedback before you and I had worked together. So, but whereas with Five Dates and Strings, I'd had, I'd done a dev edit first and then I'd sent it to beta readers, which I think made a difference. Mind you, the stories in Five Dates and Strings were a lot more, were a lot tighter from the start than Wedding Planners was.
Danikka: So, yeah, yeah. I think I remember when we started with Wedding Planners, we did, we changed quite a lot and we added a lot, a lot of chapters. I think there wasn't an equal amount of chapters for Gemma and Nash when we first started.
They were a bit uneven.
Erin: I think there was an equal amount, but there were a couple of places where there was like a chunk of chapters in the one point of view. So, once we evened them all out and sort of put in the extra ones, yeah. So, I think they were pretty much even, but it was just that there was a couple of sections which had more, like in a row.
So, yeah, once, yeah, but there was a lot, a lot that changed in Wedding Planners.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: Yeah. And a fair bit changed, well, a lot has changed in Strings. That's probably been the largest dev edit we've done.
Yeah, Strings was different.
Erin: Yeah, Strings was different because you were kind of stuck halfway through. And like, I don't normally do that, but because you and I work together so well, and we've worked together for a while now, I was comfortable to kind of writing coach you almost through that, where I wouldn't normally do writing coaching. Like, I've been approached a couple of times.
I tried it once and I was like, no, this is not for me.
Erin: Yeah. So, yeah, so the process has been quite different. And so then when I did for Wedding Planners and for Five Dates, like I've only got maybe five people to read it.
And for the first two, I would send them all separate documents just because I wasn't sure if people wanted to see other people's comments because you don't know, like, because some people might be like, oh, this is weird. And other people are like, that's not weird. So I wasn't sure if seeing other people's comments, like if you were the first one in there and went through and did the whole thing, if the next people would be like, oh, I wouldn't have picked that up. That sort of thing.
Whereas I've done a few betas recently where everyone is just, it's a free-for-all on one doc, which also makes it easier for the writer because you don't have to then collate all of your beta feedback into one document, which was probably one of the hardest things I did for Five Dates. Not because there was that much of it, but because you just need to make sure that you get all of your bases covered because these people have taken the time to read your book and you want to be, you know, paying attention to all of the stuff that they've told you.
But I think it's worked quite well with Strings having them all in the one document because a couple of things that people have picked out, someone else has said, yeah, I agree this isn't working. Like, I think you could do this instead. So yeah, that seems to be my current process.
Danikka: Yeah. No, I like that because I think, like, not that I'm in a lot of writer's Facebook groups, but I have another author who has kind of gone a bit bigger on TikTok and is in all these, like, author Discords, which is a whole other planet for me. I don't, yeah.
Erin: Oooh, yeah.
Danikka: But apparently there's, like, lots of conflicting information that happens and lots of, like, people saying different things. And so I think that's actually what inspired me to start talking about beta readers because there's confusion about what alpha readers are, what beta readers are. And I agree with what you said at the start.
Alpha readers are very much not so much a thing anymore. They're definitely more of a critique partner thing. And, like, from my experience with lots of different clients now, I think the beta readers should come after your developmental edit because developmental editing is really hard to do as the author.
Erin: I agree. I don't know how. Like, I'm sure there's no way I could do it on my own. I'm way too close.
Danikka: Like, I just can't imagine sending your book off to all these people, getting back all this feedback, and then having to sit and try and nut it all out yourself without someone to help you kind of pull it all together. And, like, even to get back, like, a developmental report. And, like, this is just how my brain works.
I don't think I could get back a developmental report and then implement the feedback myself. Like, I think I would definitely need someone like me to help, like, work through it. So I think that's another good reason why beta readers should come afterwards because you've got your people who you work with as your critique partners who are reading it chapter by chapter.
You're helping each other. They're, like, you're kind of writing, coaching each other through a bit. And if you've got a writing coach, then they're normally working with you as you write as well. They're not necessarily reading from start to finish straight away. I think that kind of works really well to keep the creative juices flowing and keep your motivation going. So I think because you're doing so much rewriting and going back and pulling things apart when you're implementing developmental feedback, I think that kind of relationship with a developmental editor is really helpful as well.
Because, again, editing is really hard and it keeps your motivation up. And, like, how many times have we gotten on a call and you're like, oh, my God, I was so inspired after we chatted —
Erin: Oh! So many times!
Danikka: —and, you know, finished things that have been taking you weeks. So, like, I think it just kind of helps.
And then once you've gotten it to a place that's quite strong, by the time you then get it to beta readers, it's not this overwhelming flood of feedback of all these different holes. It's like, oh, this little element here isn't working or I'm not quite, like, can we see more of this character's relationship or something like that? Like, it's things that are smaller to tweak and so then the beta reader process is less overwhelming.
Erin: Yeah, I agree. Yeah.
And then, as you were saying, you also need to then filter all of that feedback, which is going to be harder if it's a dev edit because there's going to be, well, you assume there would be more of it. But even after when there's not as much, you'll need to filter it because it's just because someone else has said it doesn't mean it's true. Well, it might be true for them, but it doesn't mean it's right for your book.
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah.
Erin: So, yeah.
Danikka: It was like, for example, in our last episode. Oh, sorry.
Erin: No, no, go.
Danikka: And in our last episode, it was I hated Violet and you didn't mind Violet. It's like things like that, that it doesn't affect the integrity of your book. It's just the individual reader's interpretation of it.
And so, like with strings, you've got a character who's a barista. So, you talk about parts of a coffee machine that someone who hasn't been a barista or hasn't worked in like a coffee shop would have no idea what it is. But if you use the wrong word for it, people who had worked in a coffee shop and you use the wrong word would pick up on it.
Erin: So, like three of my beta readers commented on the same word, which they didn't know what it was. I knew what it was because I had researched it because Harley is a barista and she would obviously know what this thing is. And so, I was in this tricky position where I had to decide like these three people didn't like one of them said she worked it out the further she read down the scene.
But initially it was like, oh, that sounds like the wrong word. But the problem I had was when I was trying to work out how to rephrase this sentence so that it would make more sense, none of it felt right for Harley because she wouldn't be explaining because it's all in her head. Like she's not talking to anyone.
She wouldn't be explaining what this thing is because she knows what it is. So, it's a tricky thing. So, if like you had someone who's talking about, I don't know, ballet or something, they're a ballet dancer and they're talking about a certain position or a certain move or a certain dance, they're not going to say in their head this first, I don't know, anything about ballet, but like they're not going to explain it in their own head because they know what it is.
So, and I'm not saying it's on the, you know, the reader to go and like Google things that they don't understand. As when I'm a reader, if I don't understand something, I just kind of like move [Erin mumbled here haha]. And if it's really annoying.
Danikka: Exactly.
Erin: Like, oh yeah, it's relevant, whatever. If I'm super confused, then I'll go and look it up. But otherwise, I'm like, man, it's not relevant in the grand scheme of the thing.
So, there is things like that, that you need to go, if I'm reworking and it's just not working, then you need to be true to your character and your book because you can't, yeah, you can't sort of, I have the words slipped to me, but you don't want to make concessions when they don't need to be there, I guess.
Danikka: Yeah. And I think that it's a good example of like, because beta readers are hugely invaluable and we need their feedback and we always appreciate the time that they put into their book. But it's also, yeah, you've got to take it with a little bit of perspective as well, because I think sometimes as humans, we are negatively geared, right?
Like for survival. So when, and it bleeds into everything. So we're always going to be looking at making critiques before making constructive comments.
Even the most positive beta readers are going to do it. And also the beta readers are in a position of, I guess, power, where they wouldn't be if they just went and picked up a book and read it, cover to cover, where they have direct access to the author. And so every thought that they have about something in the book, they can then give to the author.
So it's like, they're not filtering as well. So it's kind of then on the author to do it. So that's like, maybe just like a con of working with beta readers.
It's not something we don't want them to do or that we want them to change or anything like that. It's just something that you're like, it's like when you put anything out there, really, you’re going to get the good and the bad.
Erin: Yeah. I don't even know if I would call it a con. It's just something, it's just one of the things that you have to, it's just one of the things that you have to do when you're dealing with it. Because you can't, because as well, you don't want people to think like that they can't make those comments, like put them all in, like comment on everything, everything that you want to comment on.
If something's not working, say it. If you don't know what a word is, say it. The book is going to be better for you having said something and whether or not the author takes that on board.
But even if they've taken the time to go, oh yeah, maybe that doesn't work. If they reword it, like you've made that book better for that one comment.
Danikka: Yeah, exactly.
Erin: So don't-
Danikka: And you're never going to know as a beta.
Erin: Exactly. So you don't censor yourself when you're being a beta, like comment on everything, because you don't know which one is going to be that moment where the author goes, oh shit, yeah, that didn't work. I'm so glad you said something, because I would not have picked it up.
And especially, it's especially valuable for me, because I'm Australian, writing books based in the US, having betas in the US, because there was one phrase that I wrote and one of the betas was like, this might be me being American. But I think it was like the one character asked, how do you find London? As in, how do you like living in London?
And so, and she was like, I don't know if this is just me being American, but I thought he meant, how do you literally geographically find London?
[Danikka laughs]
Erin: And I was like, I would not have even, I would never have read it that way. But I changed it because you won't be the only person who reads it like that.
Yeah. And so it's just those phrases-
Danikka: Another one I think I picked up the other day was like, skolling a beer is an Australian, New Zealand thing. It's, yeah.
It's not an American thing.
Erin: It's not an American thing, no. And there's so many things like that where I, when I'm writing, I try and be really intentional about changing things, like the amount of times, especially when I'm writing. It does tend to be when I'm writing the male characters that I try, if they're talking about their friends, that I go to type in mate and I can't because they're not Australian.
So then I have to sit there for a couple of minutes going, would they call them like buddy or like, it completely throws me off. If I ever write a book that's based in Australia, it's like, there's going to be mates flying left and right. Because I can, mate and bloody will be in there a lot.
Erin: Yes. Yeah. I remember that was one of the comments on The Wedding Planners because Gemma says bloody a lot.
And someone was like, why is she saying bloody all the time?
Erin: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So it's things like that.
Like you said, if you're writing and your characters are not from the same place as you, then you need people from that place to read and go, this doesn't make sense. Because otherwise, everyone who reads it, not everyone who reads it, but there will be other people who read it who go, oh, there's no way that person would say that. I remember writing, there's a scene in Five Dates where Mac is wearing a beanie.
And even now it still says beanie in that book. And I don't know if that's the right word. Because I don't know.
I can't remember. And no one picked it up in betas. And then it wasn't until I read it literally in the finished product that I went, oh my God, is that even what it's called?
Like, that's what it's called in Australia. But I don't know if that's what it's called in Australia.
Danikka: I think it is.
Erin: Is it? Because I'm sure I've seen them.
Danikka: I've lived in the States and Canada. I'm sure …
Erin: In Canada, they call it a toque or something. I saw that on some like kids program recently.
Danikka: Yeah, they call them, it depends because like toques, you've got like toques and beanies are like a different style.
Erin: Oh, okay. Anyway, so it's important. It's important.
Danikka: This is so important. Yeah.
Erin: So important. So yes. Yeah.
Danikka: But yes, anyway. Completely invaluable, non-negotiable part of the process.
Erin: That was where I was going. Comment on literally everything. Even if you think it's like, oh no, they'll pick that up. It's like, no, we won't pick it up. Comment on all of the things.
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
And that's why I love being both the developmental editor and the copy editor a lot of the time as well is it's like, there's things that beta readers will pick up that I didn't pick up during the developmental edit. And like the more brains we can have, the better when we're looking at a book before we get it out there.
Erin: Because it's also interesting to see the different things that people pick up on like that, like some, yeah. Because everyone picks up slightly different things. It's really interesting as the author to see what is highlighted or commented on or.
Danikka: Yeah. But I think that's everything I wanted to say about betas. I just kind of wanted to talk about it with an author because I think, yeah, it's just another way to look at it.
Erin: Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure if there's anything else that I can sort of think of off the top of my head that's important.
It can be if you're someone, if you're sending it out to betas, it can be important to see like if there's specific things that you want your readers to look for, then tell them. Like they can still put in all of their other comments. That's fine.
But if there's like specific things that you're like, oh, I'm not sure if this is working or I'm unsure about this character or whatever. Make a comment, like have a sheet or whatever with things that you want them to look at. Because then it sort of puts it and have them read that.
Like if they read those questions first and that sort of in the back of their head when they're reading. Yeah. Yeah.
And it's also helpful as an author when if people are commenting through the thing and then once they've read it, they kind of step away and go, these are the things I really liked. So not individual comments in your doc, but just sort of a little wrap up. This stuff wasn't quite working, but this stuff was really good.
And that gives you sort of an overview of the whole thing.
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I think to wrap it up, they definitely need to be readers of your genre. Otherwise, a lot of the feedback is not going to be what you need and it's going to be really hard for you. And then yeah, maybe you don't need that many betas.
Like I think a lot of people get betas and arc readers mixed up. They think they need like 10 to 12 beta readers. I think I have a max of five. Yeah. Three to five is a really good number. And then arc readers, yeah, you do need more because of needing reviews for Amazon and stuff like that.
But yeah, beta readers, you definitely don't. And then yeah, having in mind things that you might want them to look at. Yeah. ARC readers and sensitivity readers can be another episode.
Erin: Another show. Another whole cup of tea.
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah. But so having in mind what you want them to look at.
And just have fun. Because like even I've got one of my, I've got you alpha reading my Project November and then I've got another friend, an author looking at it too. And you point out just like a couple of things.
But then she like does like this whole like stream of thought comments. So like every little thing that happens is like she's got all these emojis and everything like going up everywhere. And it's just really fun to like get in and see.
Erin: The difference in our critiquing style. Because I often find when I'm reading things that my, occasionally my writer brain just turns off. And then I kind of like, I'll get two chapters in and go, oh shit, I was frisky commenting.
What am I doing? So then I go back. I'm like, did I find anything in there?
Oh no, it's fine. Yeah. And sometimes I feel like I'm not a very good beta reader because I spend most of the time like doing that, like just kind of going into like reader land and then occasionally like highlighting like a sentence or a paragraph or whatever.
Just going, oh my God, I love this. I'm not being constructive at all.
Danikka: But I think that's good because like the purpose of beta readers is to get a reader's perspective.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: So I think if you are getting immersed and then things are popping out at you as being really good or popping out as like, oh, really confusing, that's good because you're seeing exactly what's like breaking that immersion in the story. Yeah. True.
Yeah. I think that's everything we had to say about betas. I'm like pretty happy with that episode.
Yeah. Because it's something I haven't seen a lot of authors talk about. So I'm glad I got to speak my brain about it.
Yeah. Awesome. Cool.
Well, thank you so much again, guys.
Erin: See you next time.
Danikka: Talk to you in the next episode.
Thank you for listening to this episode brought to you by Authors Own Publishing, the home of indie publishing. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts and follow us on Instagram at Authors Own Publishing.Music brought to you by Mikel with more details in the show notes.
Episode Description
This week on the Snailed It Podcast, Danikka and Erin discuss the do’s and don’t of Beta readers, how to find them, and processing feedback.
Brought to you by: Authors Own Publishing, Danikka Taylor, and Erin Thomson.
Danikka’s Details:
Website: www.authorsownpublishing.com
Instagram: @danikkataylor or @authorsownpublishing
Erin’s Details:
Website: www.erinthomsonauthor.com
Instagram: @authorerinthomson
Intro & Outro Music by Mikel & GameChops. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily reflect the views of Authors Own Publishing. Thanks for Listening!
