Episode 8: Fourth Wing + Iron Flame Debrief
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Danikka: Hey there, welcome to the Snailed It podcast with Danikka and Erin, brought to you by Authors Own Publishing.
Danikka: Hi everyone, welcome back to the podcast. This is just a quick, for your information, this episode was a bit cursed.We recorded it once on one podcast recording platform in the very early days of when we were recording episodes for the podcast and we lost that episode completely. And so it worked out well because then we read Iron Flame and it became a joint buddy read of both the books. But then we recorded that episode and that is the episode that you'll be listening to, but that has also had audio issues and the last 10 minutes of audio we have lost.
But rather than try and re-record the episode a year post, we are just going to play that episode for you, but then you will have a bonus last 10 minutes of future Danikka and Erin 2024 coming to you with a year after our initial buddy read recording with more thoughts, wrapping up the thoughts for you from the episode, but then also some future reflections as well. So we really hope you enjoy this episode and you might even get some feature appearances in the audio from Nugget the puppy, who is a new addition to Erin's family.
[Both laugh]So we hope you enjoy this episode and here it is.
Erin: Hi everyone, welcome back. I'm excited today and we have kind of pressed record, not prematurely, but a little bit prematurely because today we are talking about Fourth Wing and Iron Flame.
Danikka: As soon as we got on, we started.
Erin: We were like, let's just start.
Danikka: Because we did a buddy read of Fourth Wing when we first started recording the podcast and we actually lost that episode. So we just both finished Iron Flame and we're like, let's just do both books in the one episode.
Erin: Let's just do it.
Danikka: So it might go on for a little bit long because like we can ramble and we're both like
Erin: Passionate
Danikka: About this episode. So yeah, anyway, should we start? Because we've just finished Iron Flame.
Erin: With Fourth Wing? Or do we want to go back?
Danikka: Yeah, we'll start with Fourth Wing.
Erin: Yeah, I was going to say, I think my main takeaways from Fourth Wing were I liked Violet better than Feyre because I read ACOTAR and I loved Xaden. Like they were my main takeaways.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Erin: And it was one of those books that my writer brain turned off nearly entirely while I was reading that book. I just was so in it. Honestly, she could have thrown anything at you and she kind of does. And I was like, okay, I'll roll with that. Iron Flame less so, but we'll get there.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah. But full disclosure, this episode will have spoilers. So if you have not read Fourth Wing and Iron Flame or you don't like spoilers, then don't listen to this episode until you read the book. And then you can come back if you want to and see what we thought. But if you're wanting to read them and don't want spoilers, then yeah, go no further. Skip to the next episode, whatever.
Erin: This is not the episode for you, no.
Danikka: Yeah, but so I want to put full like disclosure out there at the start of the episode because I cannot stand Violet. Just, I didn't like her book one. I definitely didn't like her book two, but I kept reading for Xaden and for Tairn, the dragon.
Erin: Honestly, I need a Tairn and Tairn, however you say his name. And in my head, I call her Segal because my brain puts the G in the wrong place. But Sgael, however you say her name. I want their love story. I want how the two of them got together. That is the book that I want more than anything. Yeah, yeah. You were not a fan of Violet. Violet was not your favorite.
Danikka: Definitely. See, I liked Feyre, but I read something last night that was like, if you're a parentified child, then you'll relate to Feyre because she saves everybody's butt and then is still called annoying at the end. I was like, oh, okay.
Erin: That's a little too real for this morning.
Danikka: Yeah, I was like, that's a bit too close to home. Whereas Violet's like the youngest child and been babied and so she's a little bit like, but anyway, I don't know. I just did not like Violet from the start, but also I have like extremely mixed feelings about these books. Like just so mixed, so mixed.
Erin: Are they, did they get more mixed when you finished Iron Flame or is it the same level of mix?
Danikka: It's the same level of mix, but like, I feel like the amount either side has gone up, if that makes sense.
Erin: Oh, you liked it more, but you also hated it more.
Danikka: Yeah, exactly. There was like elements that I liked more, but elements I hated more. And like after the first book, like the first book, I agree with you, The Editor Brain, once I understood that it had been marketed wrong.
Erin: Yes.
Danikka: So this was my whole big thing about Fourth Wing that we talked about in the episode that we lost is that it was marketed as like this epic fantasy with like dragons and fighting and all this stuff. And to be clear, if you're an epic fantasy reader, this book is not an epic fantasy.
Erin: Not for you.
Danikka: It is a romance first fantasy.
Erin: And I actually saw, I actually watched an interview with Rebecca Yarris and she talked about the fact that she wrote it. So this was the first fantasy she'd ever written, but she's been a long time reader, first time writer of fantasy, like loves it. And so she wrote it as like a gateway drug, basically, for people because she writes romance usually. So it's like a gateway from romance into fantasy.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah, which I have absolutely no problem with. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's fantastic. Akasa was extremely successful for a reason. I do not have a problem with romance first fantasy. It's one of my favorite genres and I read it all the time. But I picked up Fourth Wing from the blurb, from the marketing, expecting like Brandon Sanderson style fantasy. Like that's maybe not quite that hardcore, but like, or like Kate Schumacher's level of fantasy.
Erin: Yeah, like fantasy fantasy.
Dankka: That's what I was expecting. So then when I got into it and I was expecting that, I was expecting world building, I was expecting all this other cool stuff and it was not that. And so I was quite upset about that side of it. But in saying that, I did quite enjoy Fourth Wing if I put aside my expectations versus the reality and just think about the reality. I did enjoy Fourth Wing. I think it was like quite well written when you think about the way that she wrote it and why she wrote it.
Erin: And I think if you were going into it... Oh, I think if you go into it as a romance reader, which I am primarily first. Well, and I love fantasy as well, but I've always read on the like, what do we call it? Light fantasy. Light fantasy. Romantasy. Like that is my jam. So in like going into it like that, you know that this is enemies to lovers. You know that this is romance from the minute, from the minute that Violet sees Xaden and describes him from head to toe. You're like, we're in fantasy. We're in romance land. Here's the love interest. Anything that has come before is no longer relevant. It is him forever and ever. That's all.
Danikka: Like you feel sorry for Dain immediately. Like Dain hasn't even been on the page yet.
Erin: Yeah, well, I didn't like Dane. You haven't even seen Dain, but you've seen Xaden and you know like everything about him and that's it. It's right. It's romance land guys. It's romance.
Danikka: No, before Dane, before Dane did what he did, I did kind of wish for Dane a little bit. Like he was, I've always been so like, I've always, I don't know what it is. Like I always, I don't know. Have you ever watched the movie Pearl Harbor?
Erin: No, I'm not a historical girl.
Danikka: Whenever there's two love interests, I always go for the one that doesn't get the girl. I don't know what it is, but like from that movie onwards, every time there's two love interests, I always want the one that's not the one that's going to get the girl.
Erin: Are you going for, is it always the nice one? That's the one that doesn't get the girl, right?
Danikka: Yeah, it's usually the nice one. Yeah.
Erin: So morally gray is not your bag. Well, it probably says something quite, I think it probably says something quite healthy about you as a person that you are not choosing the fucked up toxic relationship. Like that's not a bad thing. The rest of us are a little bit messed up, frankly.
Danikka: Like they're not even necessarily the morally gray one. They're just the more like quintessential. This is the love interest, I suppose. Like, yeah, maybe that's what it is. Cause like even in The Notebook, I went for James Masters. I was like, go with him. Noah’s an idiot. Why are you?
Erin: Honestly, I actually watched, speaking of that though, speaking of that whole thing, not the notebook, but I watched, or half watched This Is War the other day, which is like from 2012. It's Reese Witherspoon, Tom Hardy, who I adore.
Danikka: Oh, that movie. And Chris Pine.
Erin: What's his face? And she chooses Chris Pine. What, on what planet are you choosing Chris Pine over Tom Hardy?
Danikka: No, exactly. Exactly. No.
Erin: Anyway, welcome to the Ramble, people. Welcome to it. Welcome to a sidebar.
Danikka: We've hit our first tangent. There we go. But yeah, no. So that doesn't say a lot about the book. Like I think that I started getting mad from the point where we saw Xaden because I knew straight away that I'd been catfished by the marketing. But like once I understood that I was in romance land and not in fantasy land, I was fine. Yeah, but like, yeah, there was world building aspects and there was stuff that was happening in the background that fantasy me was very mad about. Like there was so much potential for really fantastic world building, which does happen and explore a bit more in Iron Flame.
Erin: I was going to say, I do think I do think because it was the first one and it is the first of five, there's a lot of questions. And even after Iron Flame, I have so many questions and not a lot of answers, but it's the second book. So like you've got three more books for all of that to be resolved. Mind you, I don't know how. I don't know. Anyway.
Danikka: The setup at the start though is we're desperate for writers.
Erin: Yes.
Danikka: People keep dying, but they're sending us to a school where they kill half the recruits on the first day.
Erin: Correct. Yes, that is accurate.
Danikka: That was never addressed in Fourth Wing. That was never. And then in the second book, so obviously the feedback that they got, they've made some adjustments in Iron Flame. In the second book, they're like, oh, well, the reasoning for that is if they all die during training, they're not going to be a liability on the battlefield.
Erin: Yeah. Which, okay. I understand how that kind of makes sense. I understand that how they wanted that to make sense.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: I do not understand how it actually makes sense because you've got a whole bunch like, is there more at Threshing? Is there more dragons than cadets or is there more cadets than dragons? There's more cadets than dragons.
Danikka: There's more cadets than dragons willing to bond.
Erin: But does every dragon bond? No.
Danikka: Not necessarily. Sometimes they don't see ones that they want to bond.
Erin: They might have bonded with one of those people who fell off the fucking parapet because it was a bit windy.
Danikka: Yeah, exactly. And also sometimes they like, so one of the ones in Violet's squad that was at Riddick, he was back repeatedly.
Erin: Sawyer.
Danikka: Sawyer. Sawyer. Sawyer didn’t bond the first time. So he survived and came back and was re-going through Threshing again.
Erin: Yes. Yes. I forgot about that.
Danikka: So stuff like that does happen. But I'm just kind of like, the setup was we don't have enough people, but we're going to kill more.
Erin: But we're going to kill all these people. Yeah.
Danikka: And so I don't think there's any amount of like rationalizing that you can do that is going to make that make sense from the get-go. And I also did appreciate that the flyers, the griffon riders were like, you guys are the ones who are fucked up for killing all your cadets. I was like, yeah.
Erin: When they're like, oh, we have to jump off the cliff. And they're like, what happens if you don't land on a griffon? Like we swim to the shore and get out of the water. And try again. You fucking weirdo.
Danikka: Well, actually, they go get reassigned elsewhere or something.
Erin: So it's like, why are you doing that? Well, because griffons don't incinerate people that I like. That's why.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: But also, even after you've been bonded, a dragon can still like eat you, as we saw the bad, the baddie dragon do at the start. Which, did she have to write Varys so bad? I hated him. I hated him.
Danikka: Hated him as a character or like hated him because he was the villain?
Erin: Both. Both.
Danikka: So that was something that I thought was really well done in Iron Flame was the torture scenes. I actually thought she wrote those really well.
Erin: Yeah, they were horrible but yeah.
Danikka: So she obviously clearly enjoyed writing that part. And it had me on the edge of my seat. So, but yeah, Fourth Wing, I didn't really have... Now that I've read Iron Flame, a lot of my thoughts on Fourth Wing, they basically just revolve around the marketing being wrong. So like, I think that's where a lot of it brought in the wrong readers, which is why it got a lot of really mixed reviews to begin with. But obviously the Romantasy people have found it and have loved it. And that's what's carried Iron Flame through. But I have so many editor issues with Iron Flame.
Erin: With Iron, not with Fourth.
Danikka: Not with Fourth Wing. So with Fourth Wing, it was like, it was like nitpicky things that I think I could put down to being annoyed that it was marketed as an epic fantasy when it was a Romantasy. Because I went back through... Because like, I'll highlight snippets when I'm listening to an audio book.
Erin: And that was the other difference. You listen to the audio of both and I read the paperback of both.
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah. So I know how things are said, but I don't know how they're spelt. And then you know how they're spelt, but not how they're said.
Erin: I know how things are spelt, but I don't know how they're said. And even if I hear it the right way, my brain goes, no, no, no. This is how we're saying it.
Danikka: And I do wonder if the narrator is part of the reason I hate Violet so much. Because the narrator is absolutely shocking. Yeah. She sounds like four different people. It was bad in... Because like, when I first listened to Fourth Wing, it had two narrator names on it. And so I thought through the whole book, there was one person doing... Dual POV. Like, yeah.
I thought there was one person doing... Each... Like, I thought they were both putting on all different voices for the characters, but it was just this one person. But it happened at like... And it's not like she chooses consistent voices for each person. Like, it sounds like there's two different people reading Violet's voice at different times. So like, it's not like she's got a consistent voice for Violet, a consistent voice for Xaden, or something like that. Like, she goes in and out of these different voices at different times.
Erin: Oh, no.
Danikka: Pauses at weird points. And it's really, really distracting. And then when we had Xaden's POV at the end of the first book, and I realised that was the second narrator, I was like, I've been so confused this whole time. And then it was even worse in Iron Flame.
Yeah. Because Xaden's POV is Teddy Hamilton. Is that true?
Danikka: I think so.
Erin: Who is like this massive, massive romance narrator. Which I thought… Like, not that I think it's a waste, but it seems... For one chapter, it seems like a bit of a waste. It's Teddy Hamilton.
Danikka: Yeah. We could do a whole episode on audiobook stuff. I think we've got it written down, because we went on a deep dive recently, because I wanted to start offering audiobook stuff through Authors Own at some point. So we went on a deep dive. So we could talk about all of that, and all the politics of that at one point. But suffice to say, I don't recommend listening to the audiobooks of Fourth Wing and Iron Flame.
Erin: Yeah, whereas I just binged. Well, it's because it's easier for you.
Danikka: Well, my eyes are so freaking tight. Plus, it meant that while I was listening to Iron Flame, I could clear my whole house.
Erin: Oh, true. This is why I need to get into audiobooks. But I just… I like a book book. Anyway. Yeah, so I feel like Fourth Wing, our review is reasonably concise. It probably wasn't the first time we did it. It was probably a bit more rambly, but...
Danikka: I think it was much more fresh then, too.
Erin: True. But now we've got all of the Iron Flame on top.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: And to start, I did not think Rebecca Yarros could make me love Xaden more, and she did. So hats off to you, Rebecca. Well done. However, Jack fucking Barlow. Why? Why? Is he alive?
Danikka: She could have made literally anybody a Venin. It could have been anybody. She didn't have to bring Jack Barlow back to life.
Erin: Anyone!
Danikka: It could have been anyone.
Erin: And also, I have problems. If he... So, he was Venin before he died. Is this what we're supposed to believe? Yes, because that happened during...
Danikka: Yeah. So, he came back to life and they found him Because dropping a mountain on a Venin doesn't kill them, apparently.
Erin: Oh, you got to kill him with a knife. The fancy knife.
Danikka: Yeah, that's why they have the special one, and they can only die with lightning, which is why Violet's so special. Violet is so special. Or with all those alloy knives.
Erin: Okay, okay. I forgot about that. So, he's been crushed by a mountain. He's Venin. He's not dead. But so, when you find him as the people in the school, and he's not dead, and you're like, oh, well, he must be Venin. Why the fuck aren't you killing him?
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: What are you trying to do? Reverse it?
Danikka: Well, they're trying to find a cure. Yeah
Erin: But it didn't work. So, kill him.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah. Don't put him back in the school.
Erin: Don't put him back in the school with a bunch of students so we can freaking turn them all.
Danikka: Yeah, and this is what I mean about the reasoning for them killing half of the cadets does not make sense. No. Because they killed half the good cadets and then keep alive the one who's a Venin. Like, he's a Venin. You can't cure it. Fucking kill him. Like, yeah, great. They developed that serum to make it easier to torture their own fucking students.
Erin: Which, just. Let's not even talk about that. That made me very mad.
Danikka: Like, I know, I get what Rebecca's trying to do is that the government is the big bad, right? So, like, there's nothing they can do to redeem themselves. They're always going to be the big bad. And like, yeah, okay, fine. But you could do that without, like, I think it would actually be more effective if they didn't kill half their people.
Erin: I also have so many questions about Venin now. Like, so many. She opened Pandora's box of Venin questions with Jack. Still being bonded to Bade. What?
Yeah, yeah.
Erin: Why the fuck? Bade would be like, no thanks.
Danikka: And like, he's used, what he said at the end was he used the same magic that the dragons use to bond them to basically take over Bade and control. Yeah, yeah. To control her. Yeah, exactly. So like, there's some kind of like magical explanation to that. Some sort of twisting.
Erin: And so my other thing that I thought of this morning when I was driving my children to school was that all of the Venin, we don't know how many there are. There are a lot, we assume. Do they all have to have been dragon riders? Because they very specifically said in Iron Flame that no one else, the only way you can use even lesser magic in this world is if you are bonded to a dragon.
Danikka: Well, that's not true because the griffin riders can use lesser magic.
Erin: Well, but that's because of the griffins. Yeah. They're bonded to griffins. So they get it from the griffins. But so do you have to, do you, so are all of the Venin either dragon riders or griffin flyers?
Danikka: Yeah, well, that makes sense because they create their wyvern as well. Like what are they created from? Are they created from dragons?
Erin: Well, no, they're created from those weird rune rocks, aren't they?
Danikka: Oh, that's right. Yeah.
Erin: So many questions. I don't know,
Danikka: because also, have you seen the theory floating around that Violet's dad must've been a Venin and that's why her hair is all gray and stuff?
Erin: Yes, but I was having a discussion this morning and I think maybe, yes, that could be true, but I don't think the scribe was actually her dad. Putting it out there because it's the theory that I only thought of this morning that all of the Venin need to have been riders because how else do they channel magic than the scribe can't have been a Venin.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah.
Erin: That's my theory. We were discussing, I was discussing this this morning with a friend.
Danikka: Yeah, see, those sorts of questions I feel like can be answered with future books. Like they'll figure out some way to make sense. We might not be happy with it, but they'll come up with some kind of explanation.
Erin: I agree.
Danikka: My biggest issue with this book, my biggest issue, and I was thinking about it, I was trying to think about what the biggest issue was and I didn't like the pacing, I didn't like that it had two full arcs in it, so it could have easily been two books and then we wouldn't have had to wait however long we need to wait between this book and book three because they could have split these two books and they could have-
Erin: Would you have split it like at the end of, would you have split it where they split it in the book, like part one, part two? Is that what you would-
Danikka: Yeah, so when they took the students from Basgiath to go to- That was the end of a book. That was the end of a book.
Erin: Aratia.
Danikka: When they were all on their dragons flying to Aratia, that was the end of a book. Because this book, I looked up the word count, it's like 257,000 words or something like that. It's a very-
Erin: This book?
Danikka: Yeah. So the fourth wing audio book-
Erin: It didn't feel like that.
Danikka: The fourth wing audio book was 16 hours long. The Iron Flame audio book was 28 hours long. Yeah. Yeah.
Erin: Geez, Louise.How are these like Crescent city? Because they're chunky too.
Danikka: I don't know. Let me see if it's on my-
Erin: Anyway, just curious
Danikka: But my biggest issue with this book was Violet and Xaden's relationship. All of that conflict was so contrived. It was just so contrived. Like every time they kind of resolved it, another stupid problem came up, like-
Erin: Including the ex-girlfriend.
Danikka: And it was all on Violet. It was all on Violet. Like the ex-girlfriend thing didn't bother me so much. Like eh, whatever. But like the constant bickering and fighting between them just felt so fake. It just felt like it was just there to keep us going, will they, won't they, will they, won't they? Even though we know they're endgame to begin with.
Erin: But are they? Now?
Danikka: Eh. Well, she said that they're endgame. But so, yes,
Erin: I agree. Because how- Look, Xaden did annoy me. This is about the only time I'll probably say this. With his, you need to be asking the right questions or whatever. And it's like, shut up. You know what she wants to know, so just freaking tell her. But also, Violet, he is a general in a revolution. He can't tell you everything, you idiot. Your former best friend is a mind reader. Your mom is the general of the opposition.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: He's not going to tell you everything. He can't tell you everything. And that would have been true of anyone. Like, you're a second year student and he's a lieutenant. Settle down.
Danikka: Yeah, exactly.
Erin: Like, shut up.
Danikka: So, Crescent City is 27 hours long.
Erin: Okay, so same.
Danikka: So it's about the same length, yeah. But I haven't read the whole Crescent City. I've only read about half because that was just too much. Because that's so- Yeah.
Erin: Oh, don't get me started on the world building and that. Yeah, anyway, we're not talking about that today. Yeah, their relationship was incredibly frustrating. And I feel like at the start at least, like in the first half, Xaden was trying to be like, I want to be in this relationship with you. I'm giving you as much as I can. And I'm being honest about how much I can give you and what I can't. And yet you don't want it. Like, it's not enough. And it's like, oh my god, Violet, He's putting his heart on the line here.
Danikka: And not only that, like she saw the consequences of everything that happened. Like, Liam and that other rider died.
Erin: Died!
Danikka: Like, it's a live and die game, Violet. Like, he can't tell you everything. If he told you stuff before he knew that he could trust you, they might have died sooner.
Erin: Exactly. Don't be pissy. Don't be pissy. He's not your boyfriend. Well, he is your boyfriend. But he's also, you know, got a lot of shit going on.
Danikka: Yeah, exactly. And then she's going and keeping secrets from him just to be petty so she can have secrets. And I'm like…
Erin: Oh, that was so annoying.
Danikka: I was like, you're putting everything at risk. You're like, literally, you're proving him right for not telling you stuff by acting like this. Like, and I think this is probably Rebecca's like, she's kind of wanting to write it a bit unlikable at this point. Like, there's not, she's not wanting us to root for Violet being this immature, surely. Like…
Erin: Well, she is. We also need to remember that she is only 21. I understand like 20 in the first book, 21 in the second book, right? So I understand that it's not YA, but it is still new adult. They're still being kind of dumb. Because you can be kind of dumb when you're 21, even if you're a dragon rider
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: Yeah. Anyway.
Danikka: But like, even if you put aside Violet being dumb, I just feel like the whole book was just like, just constantly yo-yoing back and forth in their relationship. Like, even after the throne scene, which was amazing. They're still having issues.
Erin: Honestly, after that, when she was still like nitpicky, I'm like, girl, come on. Get it together.
Danikka: get Over yourself already. Yeah. So like, I feel like that scene should have been the end of the issues in their relationship.
Erin: I agree. But that was too early.
Danikka: Yeah, exactly. Again, this probably could have been resolved with there being two books. Because we wouldn't have felt like it was going like this so much, the whole book, because we would have had two books. We would have had, he rescued her at the end of book one. She had the relief. She could be like, you're right. You shouldn't have told me everything. Look at what just happened. And then they could have had the whole Cat, griffin stuff in the second book. So in the next book. It wouldn't have felt so intensely yo-yo-y if it had been two separate books.
Erin: I agree.
Danikka: I don't understand the marketing ploy on that.
Erin: And also, just on her, like, tell me all of your secrets. Then he tells her his biggest secret. She's like, oh, I don't know if I can get on board with that. Like, are you fucking kidding? You are proving him right at literally every turn. Every turn.
Danikka: Like, Xaden, find someone else. You need someone much better for you than Violet.
Erin: That bit where he's like, it took you less than a minute to fall out of love with me. I was like, oh no, Xaden. I was so sad for him. But also when that came out and then Tairnn was like, what the fuck? I didn't know that. That was bad too. I was like, that’s trouble in dragon paradise.
Danikka: Yeah, exactly. And I just, and I just want to know the reason for turning Xaden into a Venin. Is the whole point of the rest of the series going to be finding some kind of cure so that then they can revert all the other Venins so that then they don't take over the continent and there isn't any need for any more wards?
Erin: Look, maybe. But honestly, so going back to the interview that I watched last week, one of the people asked her something about, I can't remember what it was, but she basically said, do not trust your emotions to me at all. Which made me feel like, like, I think she, not that she thinks she's writing fantasy. She is writing fantasy, but you're also writing romance and you have certain things that you need to adhere to when you are writing romance. One of which being a happily ever after or a happy for now. Violet and Xaden are not going to be happy for now or ever after when he is Venin. Or if one of them is dead, which I feel like she seems to feel like she can do. Like you can't kill off one of them.
Danikka: Uh, I don't know. I, so this was one. with ACOTAR the series, right? So when Rhys dies at the end of ACOWAR and then they use all their powers to bring him back, I actually think Rhys should have died. Because I think then the rest of the books would be so much more interesting because Feyre would actually, she's the high lady of the Night Court, like she has to learn to rule, she has to do all these things. So like, yes you're writing romance but when you're writing a series it can morph from being like romance into something else.
Erin: Well this is, I think you then don't call it, don't say you're writing romance, and I suppose maybe it's not then, it's not technically romance.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: Which is fine but I have concerns about Xaden living to see the end of the series now that she's Venin.
Danikka: Yeah
Erin: I have concerns. I also have concerns for all of the dragons because there's a whole thing of like, well maybe, because like initially we were like, well if Tairn or Sgael. Sgael,
Danikka: yeah.
Erin: Sgael, I can't, I can never say that name in my head. If one of them dies then everyone dies, right? But Violet is bonded to two dragons, so if Tairn dies she still has Andana's power, so Violet's not gonna die.
Danikka: Yeah. I don’t think so
Erin: If Tairn dies. But now that Xaden is Venin, can Sgael, Sgael, like can her bond with him and be like, fuck you Venin. So then if she dies he can still live because Jack killed his own dragon and still lived. So they can survive without their dragon bond. So now Sigail and Tairn could die and Violet and Xaden could be alive still, although honestly I think I would prefer Violet and Xaden to die than the dragons. I want the dragons to endure. The dragons must endure. Yeah, so there's just, there's lots of questions. Also there's a whole lot of theories rolling around the internets that Noalin, what was his name? The Tairn's previous rider.
Danikka: Noalin. Noalin, yeah.
Erin: His previous rider who saved Brennan, he turned Venin saving Brennan because he channelled too much. So maybe he's not dead, maybe he's Venin and Tarn cut off their bond which is why it nearly killed him.
Danikka: Which is why he's so adamant that Violet is his last.
Erin: Is his last rider, correct. Honestly that was probably the most romantic thing I've read in any book. You are not my next rider.
Danikka: I know right.
Erin: You are my last rider
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah.
Erin: I need Tairn's book today.
Danikka: I think this is why my editor brain is so angry, is because there's so many elements of it that are so so good.
Erin: Yes.
Danikka: And there's so many elements that are just, like you wouldn't expect there from one writer to be so much variation in the quality of the writing and the imagination. Like there's just some parts that are just so well done some parts that are just so poorly done. And then because I'm an editor I question then okay well what did your editor push you on and what how much of this is so poor because it's traditionally published and they've forced you into some kind of like timeline to get it out. Like how do they sacrifice the quality of this series for the money grab.
Erin: So I, because these, because the two of them came out so close together in like trad published fantasy land.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: They're super close. Like April and November. Like that's. Yeah. Was it even April? Was it after? Anyway both in the same year. Like that's super quick. Surely she has written both of those books beforehand. Yeah. But then you haven't, but then from you know investigations she hasn't started book three. She was still finishing some contemporary romance. No offense Rebecca, we don't want your contemporary romance. We only want more Xaden.
Danikka: Yeah exactly.
Erin: I appreciate you need a brain break. Just write a little novella. You don't need to write a whole thing. Yeah so it's, I don't know. I appreciate how quickly they came out because as a reader I appreciate how quickly they came out. But who knows when the next one's going to be. Like apparently the published date has been updated to like December 2024. But if she hasn't even started writing it everyone can put that to bed. That's not. If she manages to get that thing out by December 2024 when she hasn't even started writing it in December 2023 that's large.
Danikka: I mean some writers do write that quickly but this is this is my whole issue with.
Erin: But it's not an indie. If it was an indie I feel like you could you could do it because plenty of indies get stuff out faster than that. But our timelines are very different to a trad book.
Danikka: Yeah I don't know. It just makes me, it just makes me sad if they're sacrificing the editing time because like so many people even people who are like I'm not an editor are complaining about the sentence structure and the grammar and typos and all of that stuff. Like I've seen so many TikToks on it from people who are like I loved Fourth Wing and couldn't get into Iron Flame because it was so just poorly edited. And like this is coming from people who aren't editors. So I think that's, if I was reading it in print I don't know if I might have even been able to finish it if it was like that because.
Erin: I mean I didn't notice that stuff but it was a lot harder to get into than Fourth Wing was. Like that first chunk before they got back to Basgaith it was just there was a whole lot of info dumping in there and it was a lot of Violet angst. Which I understand why we needed some Violet angst because her brother's alive and she didn't know and blah blah. But yeah I don't know.
Danikka: I just, I just wish it had been two books. Like I think that's probably that and Violet and Xaden's relationship dramas that just feel really contrived and not real. Those are the two things that I really hated the most about it because 257,000 words.
Erin: Is a lot of words.
Danikka: Is a, it's a lot of words especially for someone who has admitted they have, this is only their first fantasy series they've ever written. Like yes it, you can read and read them all you like but it's very different to writing them. And like the first book was less than half that really.
Erin: Was it?
Danikka: Just on half that. Yeah because if you're 20, so what's 16 times 2? I don't know.
Erin: 32
Danikka: Oh so 32. So it was probably about half that. I'm like and with two such clear arcs like this whole arc getting books leading up to the torture scenes and then getting breaking out. Like Violet didn't even read the book that she'd stolen until she got back to, I can't remember where, Aratia.
Erin: Aratia, Arita, Aratia, I don't know. Xaden's house.
Danikka: In the audiobook it's Aratia.
Erin: Until she got back to Xaden's house
Danikka: Exactly so that could have been, that could have been something that kicked off the start of the next book. Like and like the fact that they set up the school with the griffin flyers and everything like that all in that second arc. That was all content that could have been a second book. Like I don't have a problem with long books as long as they all follow, like they need to follow the same arc through. So like you can have a really long book but if you're solving the arc the whole way through, you can have lots of little arcs underneath that keep taking you through. But like you still need to have that overarching thing. But I feel like this book had two very clear dunk, dunk arcs. Like one, two. So in that then I think that's another reason why I felt like it was dragging. Because you got to this point where it was, it was ending. It was closing. It was part one was done. Like there shouldn't have been part one, part two. There should have just been the end two and then this is book three. Yeah.
Erin: Yeah I agree. I mean I didn't think about, I didn't really think about that as I was reading it. But now that you say it I'm like yeah that could have, it didn't need to be one book.
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah. And like then that would have solved their issues with her not even having started writing the next book yet.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: And like all of those things like to, like this is what I don't understand. Like from a business perspective it makes no sense. Not just from the book's perspective but from like a business perspective it makes no sense. Like if you are professional editors and publishers in the business of publishing books and making a sustainable income and business out of it. Smooshing two books into one to get them out quicker doesn't make sense.
Erin: No. No. It doesn't. But maybe that's where special editions with two Xaden POV chapters come into. Although she has since, I think she has said that those chapters will be available on our website as well. So you don't have to buy that.
Danikka: Yeah because I just think that that's so rude if people have already bought the book and then you like.
Erin: Yeah it's rough.
Danikka: And then like the special edition cover like matches the Iron Flame cover too. So like Rhi actually picked up Fourth Wing the other day.
Erin: In the hardcover?
Danikka: In the hardcover it kind of does. Yeah so like Rhi picked up the Fourth Wing special edition the other day and was like is this Iron Flame? And I was like no that's that's the first book.
Erin: Fourth Wing. Yeah.
Danikka: So yeah it was just very.
Erin: Yeah. I just have, I just have questions. Just so many questions. So many questions. Yeah. One of which. So one of the things that you and I were discussing on DMs the other day was Xaden's bond with Sgael. Why does everyone think that his grandfather is his great uncle?
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: Why? Why? When we're also told in Iron Flame that the mum hung around to father, father and heir, to produce an heir.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: Xaden. Before she left when he was 10.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: So there is no question of his heritage. Like he's basically royalty. We know who his parents are. We know who his grandparents are. So why why was he allowed? Well I think we said like they should have just said no one fucks with Sgael and then it would have been like okay. She just chose him. We don't have a choice.
Danikka: She just chose him. No one. Yeah.
Erin: Yeah. So that confused me a little bit.
Danikka: Yeah. The only thing I can think is that his great grandmother had an affair with her brother-in-law. That's the only explanation.
Erin: Yeah. Maybe.
Danikka: Like I know, I know that it's like a cliche for people to be like it just sounded like that they were making it up as they went along and it's like well have you read a book? Have you read fiction? That's what they do.
Erin: That's literally what we're doing.
Danikka: That's literally what we're doing. But that's where editing comes in. Because you're not just making it up as you go along when you come into edit. You're fixing things that you've made up as you went along so that they all make sense. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But in this book it felt like she had decided all these other things about the book after she wrote Fourth Wing. But Fourth Wing had been released so quickly or was just, I don't know what had happened, but she'd established this stuff in Fourth Wing that she'd changed her mind about doing Iron Flame and so had to recreate all these things and like cover her tracks with these excuses.
Erin: Yeah. I mean because in the grand scheme of things it's like had she not mentioned it we wouldn't have known that that's not something that's supposed to happen. So just don't say it. Like don't mention it. I also don't have a problem with, but I'm slightly confused by, why Violet gets a second Signet.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: Everyone’s like it’s because she’s got two dragons!
Danikka: I was annoyed about why Violet bonded two dragons from the start.
Erin: Well yeah. But then have you, do you know that the Andana chose her like when she was in an egg or something?
Danikka: Oh yeah. When she was, she's been waiting 650 years for her and all that bit. Like I get it. I get it. But I just, I just don't like it. But that's just a personal thing. Yeah.
Erin: But so like why does Violet get a second Signet? Neither of those dragons had bonded any of her relatives. And the dragons, the dragons don't determine the Signet, the person determines the Signet. So she is a lightning wielder. That is her Signet. She can be a super strong one because she's got two dragons.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: But I don't think she needs a second Signet, which she obviously does because Rebecca Yarros has said that it's been hinted out through our own, it's manifested and it's been hinted out through Iron flame and no one knows what it is. So yeah. There's numerous theories.
Danikka: I didn't get that. I didn't get that until they were talking about it in the cave when they were like, Oh, what's your second Signet? You know, you're going to get a second one. I was like, Oh, that never even occurred to me because I just assumed that she had the reason she was so strong, even though she was so weak is because she's got two dragons.
Erin: Exactly!
Danikka: That's what I thought. And then I was like, Oh, second Signets. And then she was like thinking about Xaden and his second Signet. I was like, Oh, that's the reason for that conversation. So like, that makes sense. I was like, Oh yeah, fine. Like, I mean, it makes sense in as much as like, it was another thing that I'd be angry at Xaden about.
Erin: Poor Xaden, honestly, that boy is just putting up a lot.
Danikka: But yeah, I was just kind of like, she doesn't need a second Signet.
Erin: And I just think it's like another thing. It's another thing to set her apart, like to make her stronger or whatever. Like, we get it. She bonded in the two dragons and one of them is the biggest dragon that's ever existed. We get it.
Danikka: Yeah. And the other one is a special breed of dragon that nobody knew existed.
Erin: Yeah. I don't think she needs a second Signet anyway. No. All this to say, I will be like, I will probably reread them and I will devour the rest of the books in the series. But you know, being critical is important. I feel like. But I don't know. I just want to see. I just I have so many concerns about what's coming next. Does Violet know that Xaden is a Venin?
Danikka: Yeah, she worked it out at the end.
Erin: Does she?
Danikka: I think she does
Erin: She saw his red eyes. She did. But then we get nothing else after you need to be scared of me. If you're, if you were a dragon rider, Danikka, and Rhi suddenly has red eyes and says, you need to be scared of me. Are you going to be sleeping next to them? In bed?
Danikka: Well, I think, I think that's her whole thing is my love isn't fickle. Like, that's what she's.
Erin: Her love isn't fickle. She's been giving him a hard time for 257 words.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: Thousand words. You know what I mean? So then she decides her love isn't fickle. But like.
Danikka: Well, when they're fighting on the mat, that's what she says.
Erin: I assumed that she knew because she noted the red eyes. Right. But then when I was talking to a friend about it, she's like, no, I don't think she does know. I'm like, but there's a she he talks about her crying. She's like, yeah, because her fucking mum died. I'm like, oh, yeah. So Lilith's death kind of passed me by in Xaden becoming Venin. So maybe she just doesn't know. I don't know. I don't know.
Danikka: I think she does, because it was the whole thing with Sgael being like, be careful of your words. And then Xaden keeping his back to her and then finally looking at her and seeing his eyes. And like, she was thinking about Jack Barlow's eyes being red the whole time as well.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: Like, I think she does know. But because they had that whole thing on the mat where she was like, have you ever used it on me? Not since I knew I loved you. Will you promise to never use it on me? Yes, I promise.
Erin: Yes. Yeah.
Danikka: So I think she does know because she's like, OK, well, I've just told him that I love him no matter what. And he just made himself a Venin basically to save my life.
Erin: To save my life. Yeah, yeah true
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: I just I don't know. Oh, it makes me nervous about what's going to happen next. Yeah. Yeah. And like, because it makes them stronger. It's very Star Warsy, right? Like the bad guys are stronger than the good guys. It's like hate and fear.
Danikka: And like turning to the dark side. Even the red eyes, like Sith eyes.
Erin: Very Sith-ish. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we could just go into full on theory territory now, couldn't we?
Danikka: We could, yeah.
Erin: There's so much. Which I think is why she's done, like she's done a good job in that you will continue talking about them for.
Danikka: Oh, definitely.
Erin: Like weeks, months afterwards.
Danikka: Yeah. Like I, all of my criticism is not like dissing Rebecca Yarros or anything like that. Like I'm not someone who will ever diss an author for finishing a book and creating something because I think that is amazingly admirable and all of the rest of it. My main issue with it from the start has been the poor marketing. And then also I think a lot of the issues that I have with the text itself could be fixed if the editing process was more thorough. So like, I think that they're good books. I think the imagination is amazing. I'm just angry that the industry is such that books need to be pumped out so quickly that they can't be the best versions of themselves.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: Basically. Yeah.
Erin: Fair.
Danikka: But yeah, none of my issues are with Rebecca. Yeah.
Erin: I mean, I have issues with Rebecca because she made Xaden venin, but that's an aside. I have an issue with that. Rebecca, why did you need to feel, feel that you needed to do that to him? Because he was saving Violet. I get it. But
Danikka: Well, I think the whole thing is they've been hinting at their.
Erin: They talk about how he's so strong and all of the things and then he still wasn't strong enough to beat that guy.
Danikka: Yeah. So this is the part where we jump in from the future.
Erin: Because our ramblings got cut off for the first time.
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah.
Erin: So we were basically, we were, we were at the end. We were wrapping things up. We were talking about who we would recommend the book to basically.
Danikka: Yeah. And we were saying that we don't like star ratings, which I also agree is fair.
Erin: Yeah. Because there's so, it just, it's so hard because everyone's thought is different. Like, you know, and I understand the need for them on like Amazon and Goodreads and Storygraph and all those things. It totally makes sense. But yeah, there's so much more to it than like three and a half stars, four and a half stars. Like it doesn't really tell you anything. Excuse the squeaky toy in the background. Yeah. So because there'll be some people who love this book and these books, there will be some people who don't like them and there will be some people who were just sort of in the middle and you can be like us and have thoroughly enjoyed them and will read literally everything that comes out after and still have issues with them. Like you can still be critical of them and still love them.
Danikka: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And yeah, I think that's something that like post this episode, I don't, because I am in the middle of moving house at the moment. So I completely forgot to re-listen to the episode before this. So I'm glad that you did. I remember mostly, but I have in private and I think a little bit in the episode, I was quite critical of the book, but I want to reiterate that I thoroughly enjoyed it and I binge listened to it, even though I didn't enjoy the narrator, which, you know, for audiobooks, if you don't enjoy the narrator, it's hard to continue.
Erin: That's hard. Yeah.
Danikka: So the fact that I continued listening, even though I didn't enjoy the narrator says a lot about the entertainment value of Fourth Wing. Yeah. And
Erin: I actually got the graphic audio, which I, I'm not generally an audiobook listener, but when I saw that they were having graphic audio, so I've never listened to any graphic audio before and I actually had to stop listening to it because I was getting nothing done. Like I was like, you need to stop now. And I made a point of stopping, like I stopped really early on. I had to stop before Xaden made an appearance. Cause I was like, if I hear his voice, it's over. Yeah. It's over. Anyway. So the bit that I listened to the graphic audio was awesome.
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah.
Erin: I love the like movie vibe of it.
Danikka: Yeah. I haven't listened to the graphic audio, so I probably shouldn't because I would be the same.
Erin: Yeah. Honestly, it was, it was dangerous. But anyway, so we, I think if you were, and we discussed that it was probably marketed wrong. So if you were going into it as a high fantasy reader, I completely see why you would have felt cheated.
Danikka: Yeah. High fantasy, epic fantasy. If you went into it expecting the next Eragon, then no, you would have been highly disappointed.
Erin: However, if you are a, either a romance reader or a contemporary reader and you want some dragons and magic, this is your gateway. Yeah, this is it.
Danikka: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, Rebecca Yarros has said that's what she wrote it for. Yeah. But I think the problem is because the marketing campaign was done so thoroughly before any kind of interviews were kind of released with Rebecca Yarros, like before she kind of shot to fame, that's where it kind of fell down a bit. Yeah. I think, but yeah, so it definitely, it's a gateway from romance into fantasy for sure. Yeah. And like kind of on that, and I think there's another episode that comes out after this one by this point, actually. Yeah. It'll be after this one, but I mentioned my friend who I was shocked to find out has read Fourth Wing. She sent me a big, long, almost podcast length voice note. It seemed to me that she basically had a book hangover after reading Fourth Wing and Iron Flame kind of back to back.
Erin: We all did.
Danikka: And she, yeah. And like, this is a friend who has always really struggled with reading, like was always kind of felt like she, being a not reader made her feel dumb and has always felt like reading was like a thing for only smart people. And so for her to have enjoyed this book so thoroughly that she had a book hangover, she was crying because she had separation anxiety from the characters. And she went back two weeks later and was rereading the book again.
Erin: We've all been there.
Danikka: It just, it was a real like humbling moment for me because like, obviously being an editor, being surrounded by authors, being in bookstagram community so thoroughly, my whole life is books. And it has been for most of my life. Like I've always been a book person and I've always been very isolated in the fact that I didn't have any friends who enjoyed books, which is why the book community has been such a massive game changer for me in my adult life because I finally found other people who loved what I loved. And so it was a real kind of like humbling moment for me to hear it from her perspective. And this is why I kind of just want to, if you are listening to this episode and you're someone who does kind of shit on Fourth Wing a bit because you are a literary reader or something like that, I kind of just want you to sit back and look at it from someone else's perspective, someone who doesn't read and comes in and reads something for the first time. And it's a book and reading a book that is thicker than a picture book for them is like a life changing thing. It's something they have never done. They have so much shame around the fact that they've never been able to read and they've enjoyed it so much. And then they come online and they see people shitting all over it. Like I just really, really just want people to just kind of sit with that for a minute and just think about why it's so important that we just let people enjoy what they want to enjoy. Like if it's not hurting anyone, if it's entertaining, like I mean Fourth Wing is really like, yes it has some story faults, but I mean it's a queer normative world, it's disability representation. Like there's so many good things about this book.
Erin: There really is. And it's so easy to read.
Danikka: Yes, so easy to read. It's entry level for people who don't read complex books, don't read books all the time, who are very busy and their brains are tired. Like this friend is a primary school teacher, her brain is overloaded. She was reading it as an escape at the end of her day to get away from her reality.
Erin: And that's what it is.
Danikka: That is what reading is for.
Erin: Escapism.
Danikka: It made me cry listening to her cry because it was like, because this is like one of my dearest friends, like I've been friends with her like since early days university. And like she struggled so much at uni, like she was always so down on herself, like I'm not a reader, I'm not a smart person. And like now she's like one of her other friends who has also in the same boat, always was a sporty person, I'm not an academic person. They've read Fourth Wing and now they've moved on to A Court of Thorns and Roses and like devouring that series. Yeah. And I'm just like, it's just, it was like, yeah, I just, I just love.
Erin: But all the issues some people may have with those books, there are other people who they will literally spark a love of reading in like late 20s and 30s.
Danikka: Exactly.
Erin: And beyond.
Danikka: Exactly. Like, yeah. And, you know, as much as yes, we do need to read critically. Yes, we do need more representation. We need all of those things. And we should be lifting everyone up. And like, we talk about this on the podcast all the time. And we're trying to, you know, increase diversity with Authors Own as well. Like that's a really big thing that we want to be doing. But we also just need to step back and remember that reading and the love of reading is not something that everybody has.
Erin: No.
Danikka: We also need to remember to make it accessible and not make it this snooty, I'm holier than thou thing.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: It was just, it was a big, like, perspective moment for me because I have been very critical of Fourth Wing from an editor's perspective and from that marketing perspective. And because I am so deeply entrenched in the bookish world. So I just was like, just so grateful that she shared that with me, knowing how deeply entrenched I am in the world, like she could have hidden that from me, but she didn't. And she was just so excited to share it with me. And it was just, it made me so happy. And it was just so wholesome. And it like made my whole year and like, yeah. Yeah.
Erin: Because imagine, imagine that, imagine not being, not reading and then just finding a book that you couldn't put down.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: That is magical.
Dankikka: Yeah, absolutely. And so like, yeah, we get frustrated about viral books and which books go viral and all of the rest of it, but we should also be grateful to them because then if they get, if a viral book is someone's gateway, it will lead them to reading more critically. It will lead them to the, to the more diverse books and things like that. Like, yes, we want those diverse books to be the ones that go viral and we're working towards that. But at the moment we're working in the system that we currently have. And it means that more readers are coming to the table. That's a good thing for all authors.
Erin: Agreed.
Danikka: Yeah. So yes, I have my issues with Fourth Wing and I don't know if I'll be reading the third book because Iron Flame was a struggle for me. I don't like, I feel like I'll just, I'll let you spoil it for me.
Erin: So we'll just, it'll just be an Erin ranting episode.
Danikka: I don't know.
Erin: Wait, what's the third one called? Onyx Storm. Onyx Storm.
Danikka: Yeah. That was just the, all of the, all of the plot holes and things in Iron Flame just really started to unravel for me. I just, I couldn't do it.
Erin: Fair enough.
Danikka: I couldn't. I'm too much of a fantasy lover to. Yeah. Yeah.
Erin: But go read it.
Danikka: Yeah. If you, if you're not sure. Yeah. We just, we want everyone to love reading.
Erin: And also, all opinions are valid and we love to hear all of them. So tell us.
Danikka: Yes.
Erin: Tell us what you thought. Send us a message. Authors.own.publishing.
Danikka: I'm also really curious because it's never really occurred to me before. Like, cause I don't know, maybe I've had tunnel vision on, but like, if you weren't a reader when you were a kid, what was the book that sparked reading for you in adult life?
Erin: Oh yeah. Mine embarrassingly was Twilight. So it was basically the fourth wing of the early 2000s or whatever.
Danikka: My friend said to me, the last books that she read were Twilight.
Erin: Twilight.
Danikka: Yeah. So she, that's like, she was like, oh, it's so, and I was like, no, they're entertaining.
Erin: That was, they were mine. I inhaled Twilight. Like, I've always loved a good fantasy, like romance. So that, yeah. So yeah, that was mine. Cause I, I mean, I read as a kid, but I, yeah, I was not a huge reader. Anyway, that's another episode.
Danikka: I really want to know. I really want to know what sparked adulthood reading for people, because yeah, I've just, I, I wasn't allowed to watch a lot of things growing up. So I read.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: So yeah. Yeah. I want to know.
Erin: Tell us, tell us. Please
Danikka: But yeah, thank you so much for listening to this long first buddy read episode. I don't, I can't remember what the next one is, but we will, we'll be doing more buddy reads. So if you have suggestions.
Erin: I think the next one is Butcher and Blackbird.
Danikka: Or is it Heart and Mercy?
Erin: Well, we've already done, we've recorded Butcher and Blackbird when you hear this. But the, yes, the next one that we'll be reading together is, is the, the Under, Undermining of Frank and Twyler. And then we'll be doing Heart and Mercy and Frank and Twyla together.
Danikka: Yes. Yes. So that'll be released next year, but yeah. I think the next episode you'll hear is Butcher and Blackbird.
Erin: Butcher and Blackbird.
Danikka: Yeah. Okay. Cool. Okay.
Erin: Bye.
Danikka: See you next time.
Danikka: Thank you for listening to this brought to you by Author's Own Publishing, the home of indie publishing. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts and follow us on Instagram at Author's Own Publishing. Music brought to you by Mikel with more details in the show notes.
Episode Description
Today Danikka and Erin discuss romance, fantasy, drama and dragons - Yes they're talking about Fourth Wing & Iron flame! What genre actually is it, what we think will come next, and how dare Rebecca Yarros do that thing (IYKYK). Happy listening!
This episode contains spoilers for the following books: Fourth Wing, Iron Flame and ACOTAR.
Content warning: mentions of parentification.
Brought to you by: Authors Own Publishing, Danikka Taylor, and Erin Thomson.
Danikka’s Details:
Website: www.authorsownpublishing.com
Instagram: @danikkataylor or @authorsownpublishing
Erin’s Details:
Website: www.erinthomsonauthor.com
Instagram: @authorerinthomson
Intro & Outro Music by Mikel & GameChops. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily reflect the views of Authors Own Publishing. Thanks for Listening!
