Episode 7: The Editing Process
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Danikka: Hey there, welcome to the Snailed It Podcast with Danikka and Erin, brought to you by Authors Own Publishing.
Erin: Hi everyone, welcome back to the Snailed It Podcast with Danikka and Erin. Today we are talking: the editing process.
Danikka: Yes, so the last episode with the two of us that you got was the revising your first draft, so now we're jumping into what happens once you've done that, once you've revised your first draft so much that it's no longer your first draft, it could be your second draft, it could be your fifth draft, however many times you go over it until your brain is like, I'm done, I don't know what to do.
Erin: I can do no more, I'm going cross-eyed, I do not want to look at this thing ever, ever again.
Danikka: And that, my friends, is the point where you need an editor.
[Both laugh]
Erin: This is why editors exist, yes.
Danikka: Exactly, yes, because oftentimes you will be so sick of looking at it but you'll know that it's still not ready to go. Some people are really good at editing themselves, like there are people out there who can do it, but honestly not many people can.
It's like a rare ability and even then it's still good to have another pair of eyes go over the book because...
Erin: 100%.
Danikka: You're just so close to it.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: So I've been going back and forth on like how to do this episode because I want it to be like just this whole massive like monologue of me being like, this is next, this is next, this is next.
Erin: This is what you do, yeah.
Danikka: So I think what I'll do is I'll just do like a quick breakdown of what the stages are and then we'll do like a little bit of a chat more about like what each, because you've been through what all of the processes are like with me.
Erin: I have, three times now.
Danikka: Yes, nearly time for number four.
Erin: Well, it'll be, yeah. Well, I was going to say, when this comes out it'll be four, maybe not quite.
Danikka: We will have started the fourth one.
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: Yeah, so as an overview of the editing process, there are four stages of editing generally. I've seen lists where there are five, but honestly, if you get a proper developmental edit, there shouldn't be more than the four steps. Because developmental editing is extremely important and I think it's a step in editing that a lot of indies skip, largely because of budget concerns.
Erin: Yep
Danikka: I can definitely understand that and there are ways to do a developmental edit yourself and with your critique partners and with beta readers.
Erin: Beta readers
Danikka: There are ways to do it on a budget, so I'm definitely not saying that everyone needs to go out there and spend thousands of money, but you can't just finish the draft and skip straight into like grammar and stuff.
Erin: Yep
Danikka: You need to look at the big picture elements of the story. And preferably have at least reader feedback on the big picture elements of the story, if you can't get a developmental editor.
Erin: Yep
Danikka: Because it's just going to make the book so much better, it's going to feel so much tighter, you won't have unnecessary chapters, you won't have big gaps in the story, and everything will just flow a lot better. Especially if you're writing a series, because if you are wanting there to be things that are revealed in book three or four, sometimes the foreshadowing needs to start in book one, otherwise the twists and turns across the series aren't going to make any sense.
Erin: And you also, just with like having a fresh pair of eyes, it's like that you don't know what you don't know.
Danikka: Mmm, yeah
Erin: Like you don't know what it could be missing, like what someone else might see in it that you don't see.
Danikka: Yeah, exactly. So we'll talk about how developmental editing happens when we do the next part of the episode, but then the next stage is line editing, and then stage three is copy editing. So the reason I've listed these two really quickly is because when I went to uni, I was taught that they were the same thing.
You did a line or a copy edit, it was the same thing, basically fixing grammar, syntax, wording, everything. The way I describe it to authors is like the heavy lifting of the prose all happens in that stage.
Erin: Yep
Danikka: And then after that, all you get is a proofread. So when I found out that in a lot of editing circles, they're separated into two different steps…
Erin: Why is that though? If they're essentially doing the same job, does one then do a slightly different thing?
Danikka: Yeah. So when I first started editing, I got kind of frustrated. And so I would say to authors that no, they're the same thing.
If someone's charging you for two different steps, it's probably a bit of a money grab, you shouldn't do it. But then the more experience I've gotten going across doing, I used to call what's on the Author's Own website now as close editing. I used to just call it copy/line editing because I was taught that they were the same thing.
But as I've been doing them more over the years, I've noticed that once I finish the first pass of the line/copy edit, I will then need to do another pass to clean it up basically, which is still more intense than a proofread, but not as intense as the full first pass.
Erin: Ohh okay
Danikka: So then as I was doing up the editing section for one of the modules in Pathway to Published, I was going through and so when I did a bit of a deep dive, line editing is that stage that I described to authors as the heavy lifting stage where the prose is being fixed, we're going in line by line, looking at dialogue, looking at the order of things, crutch words, things like that, really just lifting it up and polishing off all the rough edges. And then copy editing is sometimes called a mechanical edit, which is making the manuscript conform to the grammatical style that you're choosing to use.
Erin: Ohhh
Danikka: So it's a copy edit, it's not looking at any wording choices or anything like that, it's just purely looking…
Erin: Just grammar.
Danikka: Just grammar, yeah. So that is why they're separated into two different steps because you might have an editor who is really strong with the prose side of things and with the rhythm of the text and that sort of thing, but they might say I absolutely hate going in and fixing the grammar and making it conform to the Chicago Manual of Style.
Erin: Yeah okay
Danikka: So another editor can do that. So that's why they're separated into two steps, but this is why it's important when you are hiring an editor to ask them specifically what they mean because they might be someone who was taught that copy and line editing are the same thing.
So if you hire someone for a copy of line edit, they might be going to do that big full heavy lifting, but then you might hire someone for a copy edit thinking they're going to do that big heavy lifting full thing and then you could just come back with a bunch of grammar changes.
Erin: And they don’t
Danikka: So it's really important to basically not grill the editor, but just like talk to them
Erin: Just talk to them
Danikka: And make sure that you guys are on the same page of what you're expecting from your edit process and then that might also explain a lot of some of the price differences that you see when people are calling them different things on their website.
Erin: Sure, yep yep
Danikka: Which is then why I decided just to not use either term on my website. I changed it to close editing because usually it's me, the same editor, doing the full edit. I just describe it to authors as I'm zooming in really close on the manuscript on the developmental edit where it's like we're zooming out, we're looking at big picture, you're doing a lot of the changes in the close edit, I'm zooming in and looking at everything from prose and rhythm right through to grammar and style
Erin: Yep
Danikka: And then it just takes the confusion out of trying to describe what one is versus the other. It's like no, I just do all of that in a close edit. That's what that step is. But if you're not working with Authors Own or with me then you will come across these other terms and also while I think about it a developmental edit is sometimes called a structural edit as well.
So line editing can also be sometimes be called substantive editing as well which I had actually never heard until I was researching.
Erin: Oh, no
Danikka: I think that's more of a trad pub thing. I haven't really seen that across any indie editing services.
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: I think that's more of like something they use internally in trad publishing but I could be wrong. But I just had never come across it in the indie circles before so that's why I was like oh I've never heard of that before.
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: So line editing sometimes called substantive editing which I suppose is similar to me saying it's the heavy lifting part of fixing the line section of the manuscript and then copy editing sometimes called mechanical editing is literally just looking at the mechanics of grammar.
Erin: That makes sense. Why can't everyone just call it the same thing?
Danikka: I know it's so bloody confusing isn't it? Like I mean I've been doing this for four years now and I still was coming across terms researching the editing process that I hadn't heard before.
Erin: And you were like what the heck is that?
Danikka: So no wonder authors are confused. Like
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: I do not blame any of you and so that's why we're making this episode so that you can hear some of the terms and then after you've done the developmental edit, the line and copy edit, then you have a proofread.
Erin: Yep
Danikka: And so a proofread, as it's supposed to be, a proofread is supposed to just be checking for typos if you, like for example, if you've written a book in US spelling but you're changing it to UK spelling or vice versa, checking for those sorts of things and just basically making sure that no grammatical things have been missed.
So an example I often use is when I'm working on Kate Schumacher's manuscripts we're both quite hopeless with possessive apostrophes, so
Erin: And that's like my pet peeve for possessive apostrophes. I feel like I pick them up all the time.
[Danikka laughs]
Danikka: Yeah so like that's something that's really good for the proofreader to pick up because that's something that Kate and I will quite often miss. And then another thing is a lot of the times because for some reason in Australia we're taught in primary school that speech marks are the double speech marks.
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: But yeah and that's what we're taught in high school. That's what we use well when I was growing up anyway and probably when you were growing up.
Erin: I can't even remember but yeah I think so. Yeah well because when we started when Kate said that it was not I was like yeah what… what do you mean? When you say quotations you do double fingers you don't do one finger. That looks ridiculous.
Danikka: Yeah exactly
[Danikka laughs] Exactly
Danikka: But for some reason in school they teach us to use double but then when it comes time to actually writing in the real publishing world of Australia we use single. So that is something that I do with a lot of manuscripts that are being moved from that are being published in the Australian standard style is changing the speech marks. So that's something that we will always tell the proofreaders to check is have I missed any.
Erin: Yep
Danikka: Because if you're using single quotation marks on the outside then if you've got someone who's talking and quoting someone else then you'll be using double on the inside. So we just want to make sure that all of that is consistent the whole way through. But the proofread should not be a heavy process if you've gone through all the steps.
Erin: Yeah sure
Danikka: What I've noticed happening is that because of the budget concerns of indie authors and because of just all of the confusion around the different terms of what editing is.
Erin: Yep
Danikka: I've noticed that a lot of editors who look after indie authors will just use proofread as the term and it kind of squishes at least the copy edit and the proofread together if not the line right through to the proofread together. And so they're charging…
Erin: Ohh I’m with you
Danikka: they’re charging lower prices than what I would recommend editors charge for a line edit for a proofread. But they're charging higher than what I think should be charged for a proper proofread
Erin: Yeah, yeah
Danikka: because they're doing more than that, right?
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: So there's kind of confusion. And this is why it's just really important when you hire an editor to ask them what they do.
Because they might be calling something a proofread but they might be like helping you with wording and stuff like that. Which if I was hiring well when I'm in the process of trying to find a proofreader for Authors Own at the moment I would not be asking them to do anything beyond just checking for typos
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: and those things that I've missed. Because I do go so close from developmental right through to the end of the close edit. I've done almost six passes of the book. And then the author's also been in there as well. So it shouldn't be a heavy process.
It should be basically they should be reading it as a reader but just kind of picking up typos.
Erin: Yep, yep
Danikka: Basically. But that's where again you'll see some people are charging like $900 for a proofread and some people are charging like $200. And then that is probably what's accounting for that big change is because that editor has maybe started off offering $200 proofreads but gotten a book from but been getting books from authors who have not had any other editor touch it. And they're just wanting a proofread but they're having to do more work than a proofread to get it to that standard where it's ready to be published. So that this is where like the industry just kind of being in flux. Like no one's blaming indie authors because like that it's just the way the industry is changing. We all have to like terms and things are just going to adjust.
Erin: Yep
Danikka: And it's just a case of just talking to the person that you're hiring and making sure that you’re on the same page
Erin: Yeah 100%.
Danikka: Like that's my only piece of advice really when it comes to that part of it and making sure that you're getting the edit that you're looking for is not focusing so much on the term or talking specifically to the editor and asking what they include in their package.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: Yeah, so that is...
Erin: Everyone just needs to be on the same page.
Danikka: Yeah exactly. So that's the four stages of editing and as with all things if we're talking specifically about indie authors the process might look a bit different. But at Authors Own we do the developmental edit, we do the close edit which combines the line and the copy edit stages. It's the same number of passes but I just haven't used the confusing terms. And then we have a proofread. So we do the whole process at Authors Own.
And I have always recommended doing the whole process where possible for the indies that I work with.
Erin: Yeah. Well because then once you've done the developmental you kind of understand the voice and everything of the authors, so then it's easier for you to do the other ones, right? Like you can say, oh well that word like I know that that word's wrong but it works with the character or the voice or whatever.
Danikka: Yeah exactly. And like that's something I've always been very like passionate about is that like even though for example with copy editing it's a mechanical edit so like it sounds very cold and calculated and we're going to just make sure your manuscript fits into our little box. The thing is that writing novels and books and just anything in general really is an art. And so art is subjective and
Erin: It doesn't always fit into one box.
Danikka: It doesn't always fit into one box. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really important from an editor's perspective to yes, know and understand the rules well enough so that if authors want to break them to help them break them in a way that's not going to make the book unreadable.
It's going to make sense for the author's voice for the characters for the story and just be consistent.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: Which is then why style guides are really important. And if you are writing a series I definitely recommend starting up a style guide with like spelling of characters and choices of those sorts of things. Yeah that's a good idea. Someone called it in a video the other day that I was watching what did they call it?
Erin: It's a series bible, they call them
Danikka: Series bible. That's right.
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: And that would be another really good tip is once you've done the editing process the first time you've done all the hard work of picking up all of the different little preferences that you have on capitalizations especially if you're writing with like deities and things like that.
Erin: Yeah in fantasy. That's true.
Danikka: Exactly. You might prefer things to be capitalised or not capitalised and you just need to record all of that so then it remains consistent across the series.
Erin: Yeah. Yeah. So that is the broad strokes of the editing process. But your specific editing process is also different to a lot of other editors' processes.
Danikka: Yes. [laughs]
Erin: Possibly on the like developmental stage… specifically.
Danikka: At least specifically at the developmental stage.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: And then because my developmental stage is different like you said I feel like it informs how I do the next stages when I'm working. Which is a big part of why I like to be the editor who does the dev edit straight into the close edit and stuff. I feel that it provides a more consistent experience both for the author and for the end result of the book because you're not having too many cooks in the kitchen.
Like if you think about four stages of developmental edits, four different editors that you're meeting at different stages in the process and who maybe don't know you that well at each different stage you could have been making creative choices at the heavy lifting line edit stage that the…
Erin: are then undone
Danikka: are getting undone in the next editing stage. Because and which is the importance of a style guide definitely.
Erin: Style guide, yeah.
Danikka: But if you can avoid that by having someone who gets to know your book inside and out and your style and the way that you like to word things and then can just support that the right way across.
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: I feel like it's just a better experience overall in my opinion and that's why I do my business that way. But it's not going to work for everyone
Erin: No
Danikka: Because there's definitely clients who look at the way I do things and they're like get your hands off my manuscript, I don't want to talk to you.
[Both laugh]
Danikka: You know what I mean?
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: Which is fine. So if we jump back to the developmental editing stage because this is where this is where the biggest difference in how I do things is.
I think it's less unheard of now than when I first started and I don't know if that's just because I've been like able to meet more people and so met more people who think the way I do and then that's like, how it's kind of like I just know more people now so I've heard more people doing it.
Erin: Yeah, yep
Danikka: But when I first started editing and like joined all the like professional editing groups and did some of those like ‘okay so you're transitioning to being a freelance editor like here's some you know video courses you should do’ and things like that.
Erin: Yep
Danikka: So when I was when I was doing that sort of thing the only way that a developmental edit or structural edit was described to me as being done is that the editor takes the manuscript from the author, reads it, depending on the editor one or two times and then writes up a big long report with again depending on the editor, it will depend on how long the report is.
Erin: Yeah do they then they mark up the like there's comments throughout the manuscript as well isn't it?
Danikka: Yeah exactly yes usually the report will be broken into things like character, plot, setting or world building.
Erin: Oh okay yep that makes sense
Danikka: And so it will have sections and then they'll be it will refer to comments in the manuscript for more specific details or things like that so the report will have like an overview recommendations for changes or the way that I did it in the reports that I did was I just asked a whole bunch of questions so it's like this doesn't really make sense these are the questions that I have as a reader and to kind of give prompts.
So some… sorry I'm skipping ahead in the process,
Erin: That’s okay
Danikka: So once the report is finished and the comments are done then that will be sent back to the author and then depending on the editor and this
Erin: Who will probably cry in the corner and think they're terrible anywhere from 24 to 96 hours
Danikka: Exactly
[Both laugh]
Danikka: Yeah so it it's getting a big bunch of feedback all at once but then like depending on the editor they might only offer like you can email me a couple of times with questions but then that's it like just refer to the report some editors might offer a call the kind of end support process there is very different depending on the editor that you work with yeah and like where things are kind of going for them after that in their business so like it will just depend on how they've decided to support their clients based on feedback and things like that
Erin: Yeah sure
Danikka: Most that I've seen do offer at least one call after the report's been delivered but then after that the author basically is left to make all of those big changes themselves, before they
Erin: Do they then send it back for another pass? Like will the editor then read through the changes or is that not?
Danikka: Yeah so oftentimes that's why that's why people talk about developmental editing having like you'll often do like multiple developmental edits before you get to the next because it's like oh got it each time another report is kind of being done up so like Lauren has done this process, I only did it a couple of times and then found that I was just wanting to support my authors too much so I stopped doing it so I've never had to do more than one report on a manuscript because I changed the way I do dev edits after that.
But from what I understand the cost of each developmental edit might change depending on like the level of feedback that you need it might downgrade from being a developmental edit to just being a manuscript critique if you've done the changes well enough that it just needs a little bit of tweaking, you might just get back like a one-page critique instead of the full report that you got on the first pass
Erin: Oh gotcha, yeah
Danikka: It will depend on how well you were able to implement those changes by yourself and yeah so the editor will you'll come back for further services basically to the editor and it will kind of go back and forth so it will be very much up to the author how many passes they want to do with the developmental editor, before they think it's ready to move on to the next step.
Erin: Okay
Danikka: and so I just found this process really sticky and I felt like I was abandoning my clients after and also I was because I felt like they were going to need, like especially if it was a very substantial edit
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: I just always kind of felt like they were going to just have to go off on their own and like I wanted to be able to help them like because I just yeah
Erin: Yep
Danikka: And it could be the control freak in me but I think also it's just like
[Both laugh]
Danikka: It's also just like I think, I've just have always been someone who enjoys collaboration and that part of the creative process that being with people and brainstorming and doing things and so I don't enjoy going off by myself and writing a 40 page report and then handing it off to someone and like not getting to interact because I could be misinterpreting something in the manuscript and be giving all this feedback in the report about something that I've misunderstood
Erin: And then it's all off slightly off base yeah
Danikka: Exactly yeah so then they have like a semi-useless report at the end of it because I haven't understood something at the start
Erin: Yeah and then and on the flip author side receiving a 40 page report of all the things that are potentially wrong with your baby sounds completely overwhelming to me
Danikka: Yeah yeah and I mean, I always I always did like the compliment sandwich so there would always be a section that was like these are the things that were working really, really well in the manuscript and things like that so there's always compliments in there as well as the feedback but yeah it is it would just be really overwhelming
Erin: But it's still far more feedback than straight up compliments
Danikka: Absolutely yeah
Erin: Which is how it should be don't get me wrong but, that's an overwhelming
Danikka: Yeah
Erin: It's a large compliment sandwich
Danikka: So that that just to me, I just I really struggled, my ADHD really struggled to be off on my own writing up these reports and like the authors that I was working with who I attract I think are very similar people to me in that they find it very overwhelming to get that big report and then have to try and work through it all by themselves
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: And be like what do I start with? Like what do I do? And so like I would be writing these reports and then I'd be recording videos and then I'd be doing a call with them still and like I was just doing all this extra work and I was like well what if I just changed the way that I did it
Erin: The process
Danikka: At the time I hadn't heard of anyone else who had done it this way, so like there probably are other people who do it but I had just never found anyone I'd never seen anyone doing it so I kind of did a couple of like beta testing with some clients for free and the way that I, and basically developed the way that I do developmental editing now which is I get the manuscript I read it through the first time as a reader and then I will write up an email with sometimes those sections of like world building or characters or like specific relationships or whatever with like just my initial thoughts on things that are working it's not always super detailed because sometimes it doesn't need to be on that first pass because it's like well like, there's you know the ending is unclear on what's going to happen so I can't really give you feedback on this part because we don't know what's happening here.
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: Or things like that. So it's very much like based on where, it's very personalised where the author is at their journey and like, also some authors don't like getting those emails because then all they do is just think about them until we talk.
[Both laugh]
Danikka: Sometimes they just like just to sit and talk. So some people like things written down and some people don't, so I tend to adjust my process based on like what I know about the author and how they like to receive feedback
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: and then once I read it through that first time we have a first kickoff call for the edit where I then verbally give all of my ideas and feedback, my interpretations. I make sure that I am not missing anything. The author can then kind of dump on me ‘okay well now that you know all of this these are all the things that I'm struggling with’
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: And there is an intake form in the process where you get to kind of outline some of that but it also I just think is really different when you can verbally talk through it because it's hard doing an intake form because it doesn't matter how many times I tell authors that I want all the spoilers they will still kind of filter themselves in that intake form because they don't want to spoil things
[Danikka laughs]
Danikka: So once I am fully in the manuscript, have reacted to things that happen, my reaction will prompt questions that they have and things like that that wouldn't come up necessarily if we didn't have the call and we're just talking about the book and so then once we've had that first call we kind of come up with an overall plan of attack basically on like where what parts of the novel need the most work some. For some people it's the beginning, for some people it's the end, sometimes it's the middle. It's very like, it's very rare that like the whole book needs a complete rework unless…
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: it's like one of the things about the characters is just fundamentally not working
Erin: Right
Danikka: So like there's a romance that I've been working on recently where the author wanted it to be more of like a cozy, contemporary romance but the male main character was a bit of an asshole, and so it was once he and he started off being kind of like a bully asshole and then switched switch to cozy halfway through but it wasn't, we couldn't buy it as a reader because he'd already been too mean
[Danikka laughs]
Erin: Yeah gotcha
Danikka: So it was like, okay well we need to go back and fix him from the start basically and make him more… what's the word? Relatable as a character more sympathetic
Erin: Sympathetic yeah
Danikka: Yeah, so that then we can root for the romance from the beginning and so because we had to do that it's kind of changed things, from like we've unravelled all these threads and kind of have to redo them
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: And so that can happen a lot during the developmental editing process which is again, why it's really overwhelming to for authors to do it on their own because they feel like they need to basically unravel their story and rewrite it again from scratch
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: Which is not always necessarily the case and it's also never from scratch because in writing that draft you know the story and the characters better than you did before you wrote it so
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: It's like it, just kind of helps to have someone there to support that kind of mindset through the process as well, and not let the author kind of get down in the dumps of ‘I'm just stuck and I don't know’
Erin: Yeah and ‘I don't know what to do’ yeah
Danikka: Yeah, yeah so then after that first call normally we break the manuscript up into four pieces, four sections. If it's a very long manuscript, five sections and we will then work on each section kind of as we go forward so the first section the author doesn't have anything to do for the first two weeks between the kickoff call and the next meeting because i'm just working on the first section and putting my comments and things in and then I'll send that through, and we'll discuss that on our next call
Erin: Yep
Danikka: And then from there they take that and work on the changes and feedback on that section while I start on the next section and then it becomes very fluid throughout the rest of the process and very collaborative and basically we're kind of fixing things and making things ready in pieces, so that then you always feel like you're making progress
It's like ‘oh yes this next section too is really messy but I just did a brilliant job remaking section one so I know I can do it’
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: And like authors can always see the improvement in their writing as they come through this next time as well because they've got like again an even clearer understanding but they also have the clear direction, and if they're stuck on something they can kind of brain dump it all on me and I can just kind of throw things at them and what I find a lot of the time is that my suggestions are very rarely taken, or if they are then they always turn out very differently to how I like necessarily envisioned them when I first suggested them
Erin: Oh really?
Danikka: Yeah the way I think of things, like almost never is what turns out in the manuscript, but I don't care because that's not what i'm looking for what I'm looking for
Erin: Yeah yeah yeah
Danikka: is to spark the author's imagination and then they'll do something that's even better than what I could have pictured
Erin: and you're like ‘oh, that’s great’
Danikka: yeah so it's like it's actually why I love the developmental editing process, because like I just am always, really just like pleasantly surprised at how well authors just kind of respond to getting that feedback and having that
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: interaction. Because being an author is so lonely like you're doing
Erin: It is
Danikka: on yourself by yourself, all the time and like some authors are really lucky in that their partners or their friends will read their books but like, for a lot of people that's not the case no they don't, they don't have friends and family who will read their books
Erin: I don't have a reader.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: Well, I have friends, but not, yeah, not much.
Danikka: Yeah, no, well, like Rhi doesn't, hasn't ever read anything that I write either, because they don't like the style of books that I write.
Erin: Yes, yeah. Yeah. And it just, as someone who has worked through this process three times now, it's just, it makes it much less overwhelming. And well, for me personally, so my starts are always pretty fine.
[Danikka agrees]
Erin: And the middles are usually fine. My endings are like shoving a bunch of bricks into a hole in a wall. Like it, the wheel, I don't know if it's the wheels coming off or I just get to the end and I need it to be done.
[Danikka laughs]
Erin: And Danikka can always tell, because she's like, ‘wow, that, you finished that thing in like a chapter and a half, because you were being super lazy.’
[Danikka laughs]
Erin: Yeah. So my endings are where I tend to need the most work personally, I think.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: Although in Strings, I had to rewrite the entire second half, having said that.
Danikka: Yeah. Strings -
Erin: Strings probably required the most, the most overhauling.
Danikka: Yeah. I think there was a lot happening with the process for Strings too, though. Like I think you were pushing yourself to get it out. You were struggling to connect with Harley and you were quite burnt out at the time as well. Like there was a lot of other stuff happening
Erin: It's not a great combination.
Danikka: So like Strings, Strings was like its own beast in that it wasn't the manuscript that was the challenge. It was just life and existing as a human on this planet.
Erin: Yeah
[Danikka laughs]
Danikka: And there's so much imposter syndrome and stuff for you around Strings as well.
Erin: It was a lot. There was a lot.
Danikka: Barb was really loud
Erin: There's a reason why… ooh she was. And that's probably why this year is the year that I'm not publishing a book, which gives me mass anxiety, but I think it's better that way. We will all enjoy Hunter and Odette much more if we do not try and push them out before the end of this year.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah.
Erin: Anyway.
Danikka: And yeah, sometimes that's what having like, and because we've worked together so many times now, I feel like sometimes the dev edit is almost more like writing coaching towards the end than what it is actual editing, because sometimes it's coming to me not finished. Like with Strings, the ending was not done.
Erin: No, it didn’t exist
Danikka: We did one ending through dev editing, and then as we're going back through, it was like, no,
Erin: We’re like ‘this isn’t working’
Danikka: and we changed it again. So it became even more of a fluid process.
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: So I actually love that about the way I do editing as well. And it'd be the same with any style of editing. If you're going back to the same editor, they will understand you more..
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: each time, be able to give more targeted feedback.
Erin: And especially when you're working within a series, you don't have that much of an in depth knowledge of the characters at first, because you don't know much about them. But you've seen them in the previous books, and you're like, oh, yeah, I know how these people are.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So regardless of what style of developmental editing or editing that you do, if you're going back, if you get a really good editor and you keep going back to them, then the process is just going to improve as you go over time. But yeah, I find, as you were saying earlier, I find because I spend so much time with the author, watching how they take my ideas and feedback and implement them into the manuscript, I learn a lot about the way that their brain works. I learn a lot about the way that they envision things happening.
And I get to know the book and them really, really well. And so that's why I find that process to be extremely helpful for the next stage in editing, which is the close edit, especially the heavy lifting stage when I'm helping with the rhythm of things. Because sometimes I can see what the author is trying to do, but they're still like, they just don't know how to do it.
They haven't quite, because they're either too close to the story or because they're trying to imagine things as they're writing them, things are kind of popping up and they might be coming up out of order, if that makes sense.
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: But you can't tell it's out of order as the author, because it's all already living in your head, all mashed together. But then as an editor or a reader, you can kind of come in and be like, oh, well, this section belongs up here or this, and you kind of move it around.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: And then certain lines can hit so much harder when you kind of just move a section of action or dialogue before or after it. It's things like that, that I feel like I can do a lot better understanding where the author was getting stuck or what they're trying to achieve and get across in a certain scene.
Or if there's things that I know that they struggle with, like dialogue or description or inner monologue scenes, I can see where they have been struggling and maybe not pushed themselves or have just maybe need a little bit more inspiration. So something I've been doing recently is like, just little prompts, insert this here and then this is what I think needs to happen.
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: This paragraph is feeling a bit short. We need a bit more description here. And so it should never be like me imposing what I think should go into the manuscript. Like there will be times where I'll add a sentence here or write something from scratch there, but I'll do it in what I call ‘mimic mode’ and do it in your tone of voice.
And then I'll just put on the side, this is just a suggestion, but it's like expanding this part here that is feeling a bit hollow or something like that.
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: And then it's still within the author's power to accept or reject or rewrite in a different way that they prefer, but they can see then, from my perspective
Erin: What it needs
Danikka: What it needs and where it's lacking. And so then even though it's still a very collaborative process, they still get that, you know, final decision and all the rest of it.
I feel like if I hadn't done the developmental edit with them, we wouldn't have built that trust. And then also I, as an editor, just wouldn't understand their style as well. So that's when perhaps that type of edit could become more mechanical or by rote.
And it might be where editors sometimes get the reputation of not respecting the author voice. And it's not that they don't respect it. It's just that they don't understand it yet just because they're not as familiar with the author.
And again, this is just from my experience and the way that I do editing, and it might not work for everybody, but it just has worked for the clients who I've worked with. So yeah, that is why that all kind of looks different. But then once you kind of get from developmental into that next stage and that collaborative back and forth, then all of the grammatical and the proofreaders, the same for everybody.
Erin: Yep
Danikka: But yeah, that is how I do developmental editing. And it came out of being an ADHD gremlin, I feel like, more than anything. But then also, I just really wanted to overdeliver.
And living in regional Australia, I didn't have any literary or even business friends, really, at the time. And so it was kind of a way for me to make friends as well. And I mean, case in point, we're now making a podcast together. [Laughs]
Erin: Yes
Danikka: You know? So it's served me well, as well as I feel like we've produced a lot of really good books across the board. So yeah,
Erin: Agreed
Danikka: Have you had any questions about what editing has been like for you, like as you've been going through the publishing stages? Like do people ask questions?
Erin: Some people ask me like who my editor is, but not specific. Well, I don't know. Maybe not specific.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: But I'm sure I've sort of, when people have asked, I've explained that your process is different to other processes, which is why I personally like it because it works better for me and my brain.
Danikka: Yeah, because that's something I've noticed as well. So a lot of the questions that exist out there about editing or editors, it's not about the process. It's about finding an editor.
Erin: Yeah, totally. And I think because you don't, because it feels kind of daunting, right? One, because where the heck do you even start if you've literally just written a book and you don't, like I didn't have much of a like, network or whatever. I hate the word network.
Danikka: I know, it’s so gross isn’t it
Erin: Anyway, you know what I mean. I didn't have anything like that when I sort of first started writing. Like I had one friend who wrote that I, you know, we like exchanged whatever, what we were writing.
So it's daunting going, oh, well, now I need to, I've written this thing and I don't know what to do with it, really. But I know that it needs more work than I can currently give it. And yeah, it's daunting.
Danikka: Yeah
Erin: And you could probably Google, but then as well, and especially being in Australia, a lot of what you see is from the US and the UK.
Danikka: Yep, yep.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: So yeah, that's another reason why I'm trying to put the education out there about the editing process because I feel like it empowers authors more to find editors because they understand what it is that they're looking for and who they're hiring. And most editors will have really good information on their websites, especially editors who've been around for a really long time.
Sometimes I think they assume that authors already know. And so they'll just have their pricing and the different names, but not exactly what it is, which can be difficult. So if you as an author first understand what the editing process is, then you can understand, okay, well, this is my budget, this is what I can do.
And we do have an episode on beta readers coming out soon
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: Which during the editing process, I usually like beta readers to come in when we finished the changes on the developmental edit. And they'll either be reading it while I'm working on the close edit or have read it before I've started the close edit, depending on what the timing of the project is,
Erin: On where we are, yeah
Danikka: Because then we can be getting their feedback on how the developmental edits are hitting with readers as we complete the close edit, so that then if there are any things that are still not quite hitting because we're now both too close to it or something like that,
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: Then we can get that feedback coming through. But in my experience, mostly what it is, is readers just reacting to things. And then there might be a scene or two. Usually with romance, it's around the sex scenes.
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: It's good to get feedback on the way things like that are hitting. And with fantasy, making sure that it actually makes sense and readers understand what's happening. There's no plot twists coming out of nowhere.
Erin: You're not getting confused by who's talking.
Danikka: Yeah. Because I feel like that's the most important thing. I mean, that's why you hire an editor. That's why you're doing it in the first place, is you want readers to enjoy the book.
Erin: Yeah
Danikka: So you don't want to invest all this money in editing and then finish the book and send it to readers and still have them not like something when you could be working with the editor when you're still getting that feedback and then be like, ‘oh, well, readers are saying this. What do you think?’ And then also it helps if you're getting kind of this out of left field feedback from beta readers that might not necessarily apply.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: It stops you from kind of going into a spiral by yourself because you've got someone to ask and kind of, you know, reassure you or go over it with. But I love having beta readers jump in the manuscript. I feel like they always pick up things that…
Erin: Oh, yeah. And I'm sure as we discussed in the beta, yeah, it's.
Danikka: Yeah. Heaps comes up in the episode. So yeah
Erin: They’re invaluable, beta readers
Danikka: So that will be coming out very soon. The beta readers 101 episode. But I think that's everything I've kind of got for editing for you is like if I was to wrap up with any kind of recommendations, I think before you look for an editor, understand the editing process and what your budget is and where you're sitting and what you want for your manuscript.
And then that's when you look for an editor. There are all sorts of things you can do. I think looking for an editor, it would be another whole episode in itself.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: But understanding the process.
Erin: Kind of like speed dating.
[Danikka laughs]
Danikka: Yeah, exactly. And then when you are talking to editors, ask them what they mean when they're using terms on their website.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: That's included because that will help you when you're budgeting as well, because you can see, okay, well, they're charging, you know, $600 for a line edit, but what they really mean is a proofread.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: They're charging, you know, $900 for a proofread. But what they're really doing is a line edit.
Erin: What they mean is line edit.
Danikka: And so, like, that's where you'll start to just get the information from the editors and then make an educated choice with an understanding of what the process is and what should be happening to your manuscript.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: And then that way, you won't have any, hopefully, any bad surprises along the way. But yeah, that's everything for me on the editing process. Cool.
Erin: All right. Well, that's it for us today, then.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: If you've got any more questions about the editing process, let us know.
Danikka: Yeah. Well, I'm more than happy to keep talking about it, because I tend to keep going. But yeah. Thank you, as always, for listening. And we'll see you in the next episode.
Erin: Bye.
Danikka: Thank you for listening to The Snailed It Podcast with Danikka and Erin. Brought to You by Authors Own Publishing, the home of indie publishing.
Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts and follow us on Instagram at Authors Own Publishing. Music brought to you by Mikel with more details in the show notes.
Episode Description
Join Danikka and Erin as they discuss the four stages of the editing process, what the different terms mean, and what you should know BEFORE choosing an editor.
Brought to you by: Authors Own Publishing, Danikka Taylor, and Erin Thomson.
Danikka’s Details:
Website: www.authorsownpublishing.com
Instagram: @danikkataylor or @authorsownpublishing
Erin’s Details:
Website: www.erinthomsonauthor.com
Instagram: @authorerinthomson
Intro & Outro Music by Mikel & GameChops. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily reflect the views of Authors Own Publishing. Thanks for Listening!
