In Conversation with Madeline Burget: Lessons from Getting Scammed as an Indie Author
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Danikka: Hey there, welcome to the Snailed It podcast with Danikka and Erin, brought to you by Authors Own Publishing.
Danikka: Hey, welcome back everyone to the Snailed It podcast with Danikka and Erin. We don't have Erin here today, it's just me, Danikka, and then I've also got my friend Madeline Burget.
Is that how you say your last name?
Madeline: Burget, but it's fine.
Danikka: Burget, okay.
It's probably the accent because I've got the Aussie accent and then you've got the American accent. Madeline Burget, the author of Caraway of the Sea. She's here with me today, we're going to be talking about different experiences we've had getting scammed by people, in Madeline's case by an editor, and seeing other editors in author spaces offering similar services.
So we're doing a bit of an educational episode to just kind of let you guys know red flags to look out for and, you know, things that can be, you know, something to really think twice about before you sign anything. And I was really intrigued because I edited Madeline's book after you got scammed. And so, you know, I went, definitely made sure I wanted to give you a good experience, but I really felt it because I have been scammed early on in my business by a business coach.
So when I hear people, and editors can often function almost like a business coach for authors as well, so it's quite a similar experience. And so it really hurt me that you went through that. So I was like, we're going to, we're going to make it better.
And yeah, I, and just, you know, because we've become friends now since I've written [meant edited] your book, and you would give me updates on all these things that are happening in author discords. And it just blows my mind. And I was like, we have to do a podcast episode about this.
So this is what we've got Madeline here. So yeah, we've got Madeline Burget, author of Caraway of the Sea, which is a pirate fantasy novel. And would you call it fantasy?
Madeline: I'd call it fantasy. Yeah. I usually go with, like, fantasy pirate because just pirate is doesn't do it just enough justice.
Danikka: But yeah, yeah, exactly. So by the time this podcast comes out, Caraway of the Sea will be out. So at the end of the podcast, Madeline will tell you guys where you can get it.
But yeah, in the meantime, I guess we'll just kind of, I kind of want to hear from your perspective, how you met me. So like how you met your previous editor, and then like, what that kind of transition was like, because I, I know what you went through, but I like don't know the sequence of it, if that makes sense.
Madeline: Okay, so I guess this all started about in November, is when I joined BookTok.
This was when I created my TikTok account. She was one of the first editors that the For You page showed me. And I don't know why.
I guess sometimes the For You page will give you whatever it thinks you need. In this case, it decided that I should be scammed. So that's kind of how I met her.
I started watching all our videos fell in love with her charisma and her what appeared to be sincerity with helping indie authors and charging less for editing. I don't know if I should go into too much detail about the whole scamming yet. We can probably discuss that later.
But after I was scammed, I think it was around like, I think I quit her services and fired her in December. And then that's when I made my TikTok asking authors for help because I needed to find a new editor because I was so upset and so mad. But I still wanted to publish my book because she said I would not be able to that I would never find anyone in this industry that would help me.
So yeah, that's kind of how I made it for help. And two of your authors reached out to me and said, Danikka, Danikka, Danikka. Go to Danikka. I was like, Okay, well, two authors are reaching out to me. And you're the one that needs to edit my book.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah. No, I think Kate Schumacher, who I talk about on the podcast a lot. I'm going to get her on to an episode soon. But yeah, she was one of the ones who reached out to you and Viviene, the author of the Fanhalen Chronicles as well. So I'm always like forever grateful.
I love my clients. And I think having real authors recommend me and recommend other editors, like I've got some really good friends who are editors as well. And it just makes such a big difference.
It gives you that peace of mind. It's written testimonials are great. But if you can have, you know, people full-on recommending you then—
Madeline: You know, Testimonials can be faked as well. So we can discuss that later.
Danikka: Exactly. Yeah.
So I think that's probably a really good green flag for people if you're looking for an editor is if you've got real authors, you know, recommending, then yeah, that's, that's a big green flag. Or even if you don't have the authors reaching out if they've got like authors, you know, that you can reach out to, because like I have my highlight on my Instagram profile, where people have posted recommending me. So I just add them so that you can see they've actually posted it.
And it's not just me putting their testimonial on my website, but also like, they've all said that they're happy for people to reach out to them. So that when I'm talking to new clients, I, you know, always say, you know, chat to these guys, because they'll tell you what's what.
Madeline: And that's amazing. I love that.
Danikka: But I guess I'm just kind of interested, like you said, you're really pulled in by her charisma. And like, you know, that appearance of sincerity.
And I've actually had her come up on my For You page a lot before my personal TikTok got packed, and I took it down. But she was coming up sometimes, some days was like every third video was her. So that was like, I don't know what she's doing with the algorithm, or whether it's just because of the way the TikTok algorithm works.
But it's quite scary to me that she's so prolific and like so present on people's FYPs when you know, she's making such horrible experiences for people.
Madeline: Yeah, yeah.
Danikka: So did she approach you? Or did you reach out to her?
Madeline: So I actually was, I watched a couple of videos, and then she went live later in the day. And I noticed that and so I joined the live and she was talking to a couple of her clients that were in the chat.
I later did find out that one of those clients was not a real client. It was just someone that she hired. And then the other client ended up quitting her services, even though WHOOPSIE, told me that they had betrayed her or some nonsense.
But I found out later that they just caught on to her scheme and got out quick.
Danikka: Yep, yep.
Madeline: So, she doesn't really like her clients talking to one another. That was another red flag that I ignored, even though I did raise concerns with it.
She didn't want us to talk to each other, friend each other on TikTok, any of that nonsense, because she wanted us to focus on our books, which is all well and great. But my book was written, I just needed to get started on the author coaching journey and start editing. So it was a little bit strange.
There were a lot of red flags, I could probably go on for days about the red flags that I ignored.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, we were talking about that as well, because we were both raised fundamentalist Christian, different denominations.
But when you're raised that way, and I think a lot of people, especially in America are, it's not as prevalent in Australia. I think you do become more susceptible to these kinds of scams. So these people who are very charismatic, and, you know, on the surface look like they're really wanting to help you and have, you know, authority.
And so you tend to, you know, defer to them in a lot of things, and you trust them, because that's how our brains have kind of been programmed with, you know, trusting the Almighty God and trusting the elders in the congregation and that kind of thing. So I think it's even more hurtful on that level, because they're taking advantage of people who have already been taken advantage of so much. So I think, yeah, that level of charisma and that lack of proof in the pudding, I suppose, is another red flag in a lot of ways.
Like, I mean, people could say my videos were quite charismatic, I suppose.
Madeline: But it's not just the charisma. We did, you know, trauma bond, emotional bond.
She presents herself as Christian, but she's more open, she claimed, to LGBTQ plus spaces. We don't think that's true any longer, but because of previous evidence that we found. But she did portray herself as that.
And I believed it. And I almost saw her as like, a second motherly figure, because my mom DNF'd my books and still hasn't finished them. And she's very close-minded about certain things.
So for me, when I was talking with her, and I talked to her for a good hour in our like, little chat before I signed on with her, like, we bonded over like, a lot of different things. And she learned a lot of personal things about me. And they all seem to align with her past and her background.
And she was very supportive until she got the final payment from me. So that's when things took a turn. But you know.
Danikka: So what was that turn? What was that turn like?
Madeline: So it was got went the switch from being like, supportive to supportive to cancelling every single meeting we had not responding to messages. Whenever I'd ask questions, I was getting like a whole novel of like, really, really aggressive messages back that I was being demanding, that I was trying to rush the process, that I was asking questions that I had no right to ask and all of these things.
It was just, oof, it was a lot. And I do have screenshots of every single message in case she ever gets mad at me for speaking out about it. But this is all a personal experience. And I'm entitled to share that experience with the world.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah. It was kind of similar in my experience with my business coach.
Like when we first started, I was drawn to him because he seemed like in the online coaching kind of space, you see lots of people like claiming that you can make this much money, and you just have to change your mindset and all this other stuff. And his content seemed really different. Like he seemed much more down to earth, like there was lots of pictures of his kids and just like, being everyday kind of human.
And so I found that to be quite good. And I was working with my ex-partner in the business at the time, and we were kind of struggling to get on the same page of what we wanted to do. So I thought a business coach would be really helpful.
And his sales tactics were very similar to what I experienced with what they teach you with how to convert people to, you know, high-control Christian groups. And I was, you know, fairly recently on my deconstruction journey. So I wasn't, you know, as I suppose, aware of like, how people kind of build that trust with you so that then they can make you second guess yourself all the time.
I suppose gaslight is probably the word that I'm looking for with that. So I remember we did the sales call with him. And like, I probably should have done a lot more research too, like, I look back on it now.
And like, you just, you're just so excited to find someone who is like talking to you and taking the time. And so you're like, oh, this is good. Like I found the right thing on the first go.
And then we had our sales call. And he was, you know, seemed very reasonable. And you know, he was talking about all these results he'd gotten his clients before and stuff like that.
And so we signed on to a program where he said we were going to be making 10k a month within three months, but we had to pay him $1,500 a month for the privilege of one on one meetings once a week. And then apparently, we could message him between those meetings, but he almost never responded to the messages. And then there was a group call.
But it was a similar thing where he didn't really want us talking with the other clients. Like we could talk with them if we were in the group call, and kind of workshop together. But if we weren't in the group call, he didn't really want us talking outside of that.
And it was just very, yeah, very similar. Like now that I'm like thinking about how all that went, WHOOPSIE, I'm like, yeah, that's very similar. And then when we weren't achieving the goals that, you know, he was setting for us, it was because our mindset was wrong. Not because the advice that he was giving us was rubbish.
Madeline: Yeah, that has nothing to do with it. I assure you, it's all your fault.
Danikka: Yeah. But it was things like if you're not DMing 50 people a day, cold DMing, like no wonder you don't have clients and things like that. And I don't know, I feel like it'd be similar with author coaching, like if it was a self-publishing coaching program, if you know, if you're not posting, you know, every single day and not, you know, giving away free books left and right, like no wonder your sales are down.
Madeline: Yeah, if you don't follow their plan to a tee, any little mistake you make in their plan, that's the reason that they blame your failure on. Nothing else to do with the program. It's that one little thing you didn't do, or you refuse to do.
Like, it's insane.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah. And so was there like a light bulb moment for you where you realized that you had been scammed?
Madeline: I think I was in denial for the first two weeks. I saw some little red flags here and there. Like I noticed the day after I signed on with her I had to pay the first half of my payment within 24 hours, which I thought was standard.
But she had me pay that before I signed the contract. I thought that was strange.
Danikka: Yeah.
Madeline: And I think that might also be illegal. I'm not entirely sure. But I did send her the money before I signed the contract.
And then I noticed a couple things in the contract that I totally did not agree with. And I raised questions about it. But she waved them off and said the only reason why they're in the contract is because a previous author betrayed her and like did this and this and that.
So she added in those clauses to prevent that from happening again. And oh, don't worry about it. That'll never happen between us because you and I, you and I are great.
We're going to be great together. You know, and yeah, so I really should have raised further questions about the no refund policy, the ‘you're not allowed to talk about me on any social media platform after this, you're not allowed to take any screenshots of your experience, my messages or my editing’, no editing screenshots whatsoever. You know, all these things.
And she owns the rights to the editing that she does on your book, even though it's your book.
Danikka: *Laughs* That’s just insane.
Madeline: So yeah, it's kind of crazy. And you're not supposed to leave a bad review anywhere. She gets really mad when you do that.
But of course, I've done that. So have many authors. And she even keeps up all the testimonials of all the authors that she's screwed over, and she changes their testimonials to be positive.
Danikka: *More incredulous laughing* The audacity!
Madeline: So and then she claims she's had multiple best-selling authors. And I've talked to all those authors and they were not best sellers with her edited manuscripts that she gave back to them. They had to find more editing services to get to where they are do a new cover design everything.
So yeah, yeah, they're best selling authors now because they put in the effort and they've taken years to recover from that. So.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah. So just as part of her package, she was offering self publishing coaching, she apparently had a team of editors,
Madeline: A team of elite editors. She never gave me any names for the editors. I heard one name in passing, which was WHOOPSIE, which is a recurring name that's come up.
But WHOOPSIE definitely does not have a whole team. And she's lucky if she even has one or two at one time, because we've also talked to past employees who have only ever worked for her for a short amount of time, not been paid and then quit. So yeah, yeah, yeah.
Danikka: *Laughing* So there's layers, there's layers.
Madeline: So many layers to the scam. It would almost be easier to start a legitimate editing business, but she refuses to listen to our advice.
Danikka: Oh my God.
So with like having gone through that, I know you're quite active in a lot of author spaces like Discord and on TikTok. When you see people coming up with similar offers, like you've been telling me, you ask kind of questions to see what they say and things like that. Is there anything that kind of as soon as you see them sets off alarm bells for you?
Madeline: So you mean with like other editors that might not be completely sincere?
Danikka: Yeah.
Madeline: Ooh, alarm bells would probably be anytime.
Oh my goodness, there's so many. Anytime they are overly nice. I want to say I want to say love bombing would be the correct term here.
Anytime they are just over the top positive about every single aspect of your novel. Because I've seen it happen a lot with editors who are not totally sincere or know what they're doing, but they love the crap out of your novel and say it needs barely any editing at all. It only needs like one specific type of editing and then it's great for publishing.
And then they tell you that if you edit with them, they can crank out 10 novels in a year and you're going to make 40K your first year as an author. And then you can quit your full-time job. Like that's a huge red flag.
Danikka: Yeah, that's massive.
Madeline: When you make promises and guarantees that they can quit their full-time job in a year, which very rarely happens with most authors. That's a huge red flag. And a lot of other authors have come forward and told me that they've had many, many editors say that they can achieve that.
Danikka: That’s wild to me.
Madeline: And it's, I don't know where these editors get their confidence from, but they're modeling it and selling it to these editors. I'm not, I don't know.
Danikka: Well, I mean, that's, that's the, so like what I went through with my business coach and like in the online business space, it's like 10K a month is like this gold standard.
And so many of the business coaches are like, I'm going to get you to 10K a month. I'm going to get you to 10K a month because that's like, apparently, you know, that's six figures. You've done your business right.
And I feel like that's kind of similar with the language that these editors are using is, oh, you can quit your full-time job, but like preying on like the dreams of authors who are writing books and wanting to make, you know, a living out of this.
Madeline: But they can't prey on, yeah, they can't prey on established authors though, because they already know what they're doing. So they have to target specifically writers new to the industry who are going for their first novel.
Danikka: Yeah. And who don't understand, like most people don't know that most books sell less than 2000 copies in their lifetime, because that's just how the industry is. And you can increase that, but you know, it usually, it takes having been writing books for a long time.
Like Sarah J. Maas wrote, you know, tens of books before A Court of Thorns and Roses went viral. Holly Black, I think it was like her fourth or fifth book that got big. You know, there's all these big names in the industry have been around for a long time.
Like you've got to, it's not something that you're going to be making 40K in a year. And I mean, like some genre fiction, and I've seen people on TikTok where they write specifically, you know, monster porn and things like that. And they just write that and they crank out like two or three books, you know, every two months.
Madeline: And there's nothing wrong with that either. That's just a different writing style.
Danikka: And it's a different writing style. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so if you have the knack for doing that, I think that that's fantastic.
Madeline: But even to crank out high fantasy novels, 10 of those a year. Yeah, good. Yeah, good luck with that.
Danikka: Yeah that are high quality and well-edited. And yeah, yeah, like, it's just, it's not going to be a thing. So yeah, I guess it's, you know, we could probably do another whole podcast on, you know, business tactics for authors and things like that.
And I probably will at some point. But yeah, I think anyone who's making big promises like that is definitely you should be wary of. Yep.
Because that's very scary. That just is insane to me. Because I just, I don't know, like, I just, I don't know.
I've never really come across it. But I guess it's because I'm not, like, I came into this with previous knowledge of the industry. So like, I've never really been in that new author space.
Like, I work with new authors, but like, it's just never like, I don't know, I've just never really come across that kind of thing before.
Madeline: When you're a new author, and you're starting to look for advice and looking at editors and looking for a leader that'll give you like, really good information, you will listen to anyone who speaks with authority, like WHOOPSIE did. And so you follow them.
And then that's all your FYP is going to give you it'll give you similar people like it gave me similar people. So but she for some reason, really, really hurt her hooks got so deep. But I don't know, it's just whatever voice reaches those new authors first is the voice they're going to listen to and probably fall prey to first.
So the fact that it was WHOOPSIE for me really sucks. But yeah, you get past it. The only thing I could recommend a new authors is join author groups before you start looking for editors and start learning the ins and outs and just socialize get recommendations from people who have been in the industry way longer than you because that's the only way to be able to avoid all of the scams.
And there's a lot of them. So.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah, I think that's really good advice. And it's kind of like what we were saying at the start, get real author recommendations.
And, you know, read those authors books and, you know, do your research because, you know, especially if you're pursuing self-publishing, you know, you're going to be investing a lot of money into this project, anywhere from five grand to 10 grand normally over time, that is not necessarily all up front. So, you know, you want to be doing your research and avoiding.
You were you were lucky at least and got your money back through your bank. Other people haven't been so lucky.
Madeline: Yeah, unfortunately, but we're we're trying to help them in any way we can.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah. And I guess part of that is just prevention, stopping any more people from getting into that situation, which is, you know, part of why we wanted to do the podcast.
Madeline: Yep.
Danikka: So yeah, just going to do a little recap of the red flags, you know, not having clients wanting to speak to each other only having written testimonials.
Madeline: Making it all about the money and requesting payment either the same day and then also asking for the next payment if you're on a payment plan sooner than what is in your contract, because my second payment was a week before it was due. It was on Christmas Eve night that she messaged me in a panic saying she couldn't pay her mortgage.
And I fell for it. And apparently she pulled that line on every single client she had at the time, which was seven clients. So we all on Christmas Eve sent her the rest of our payments.
And a week later, she went on vacation. Very cool. Very cool of her.
It was crazy. That was the moment I realized what did I just I sent the other half the payment is like, oh, it's Christmas Eve. And oh, my gosh, Christmas is going to be ruined for you.
Like, I'm so sorry. And she had COVID and all these things were going wrong in her life. I'm like, I'm sending my payment right now.
Don't worry about it. And so I sent it. And then the next day I was talking to one of her other clients. I wasn't supposed to. And I found out she also sent her other payment. And I'm like, hang on.
Did we just both send her? Hold a second. Hold on.
And that's when I got on the internet and started digging further. And I found her previous employees reached out to them. And then the tinted sunglasses came off on Christmas Day.
And I was like, what did I do? I didn't even want to tell my husband at first. I just kind of wallowed and was silent and trying to decide what I should do.
It was awful. I hated Christmas last year.
Danikka: That's horrible.
Madeline: Yeah, like, that's that emotional manipulation just clearly on display right there. That other client that she forced to pay, she literally couldn't pay it at first and WHOOPSIE messaged her aggressively all night long on Christmas Eve, begging for the money, demanding the money. And this poor other author literally had to forgo a lot of Christmas opportunities for her young children in order to make that payment happen.
And that just, ooh, makes me furious when I think about that.
Yeah, I don't know.
Danikka: Oh my god.
Madeline: It's just sometimes you wonder couldn't be so much easier if you just hired someone besides yourself who's good at editing, pulled your business back a little bit and actually tried to do things right. I don't know, offer actually a helpful service.
Danikka: Oh my god … um.
I think the price tag for the editing is also a red flag. I don't know how much WHOOPSIE was charging, but I know one of these other authors.
Madeline: Yeah, too cheap.
Danikka: So you want something that's kind of sounds realistic. You don't want something too cheap, but you don't want something too expensive either. Yeah, there's another editor claiming 15k …
Madeline: 15k for an indie author to get three types of developmental editing, copy and line edits, one proofread, and a cover, no marketing, no support.
Afterwards, it's literally just editing the cover, a proofread for 15k. Yeah. And I guess like, yeah, he calls that trad standard. That's traditional publishing standard.
Danikka: *Annoyed laugh* That makes me so mad.
Madeline: And she thinks that's the only way indie authors can get their books into retail is by having a traditionally published standard edit.
And only she can provide that for 15k. She discounts it to 10k. And that's barely scraping by for her company.
Apparently, some people spend like 10k on their whole book, like, including marketing. I've seen some people that get away with 2k. I don't personally feel comfortable going that low, because I don't trust myself to do all of it myself.
There's no way. I mean, you saw my book before editing, and I definitely needed editing. So
Danikka: Haha. Yeah, we did a lot of editing.
Madeline: I feel so bad. I put you through the ringer with editing.
Danikka: No, that's my job.
That's my job. And it was it was fun to because I love seeing the before and after so like I keep the initial manuscript and the edited manuscript. And I can see the progress of what I've done.
And like, you know, the praise has been coming rolling in for Caraway of the Sea. So it just goes to show that editing really does make a big difference.
Madeline: I got three emails just today from ARC readers who loved the book.
And they had like, paragraphs of praise. And I'm like, please put that on Goodreads. I love you. Thank you.
[Both laugh]
Madeline: Like, one of them made me cry. One of my ARC readers actually got in a skateboarding accident.
And I guess she was in the hospital, and they had her on some pain medicine. And she was spouting praise to anyone that would listen, the nursing staff all about my book. And I'm like, okay, that's great.
I love that.
Word of mouth is happening, it's happening and it's a beautiful thing.
Danikka: Yeah. So this is probably a good time for you to say where people can order your book, because by the time this podcast goes live, it's going to be out in the world.
Madeline: All right, so my book will be available on Amazon. I'm hoping to get the ebook on Kindle Unlimited. But right now it's just ebook, it's pre order, it's probably gonna be released. I don't know when this goes out. But paperback’s definitely going to be on Amazon as well as the ebook.
Danikka: Thank you so much for coming on. Because like, I know this is like a really hard topic. And when you know, you have been, you know, taken ahold of emotionally so deeply in the way you have to then come on and talk about it, to help other people is just like intensely brave.
And I'm just so grateful that you chose me to be your editor to like, I am just happy that we've gotten the book to a point and you're achieving your goals and you know, good things are happening.
It can turn around. So if you have been scammed, you can turn things around and still have a good experience and learn
Madeline: 100%. Yeah.
Danikka: So I think that's a really good thing to take away from this too. But yeah, if you guys have any questions, Madeline has a discord for new authors that I will link once I put the podcast up. I'm sure you're more than welcome to join that.
And also, you can always reach out to me as I say, after every podcast, my DMS are always open. But yeah, thank you guys so much for listening. And we really hope that you haven't been scammed.
But we also hope that this makes you realize research is definitely necessary. And that other authors are the biggest resource and community that you can access definitely before you go trying to purchase any services. So yeah, thanks so much for listening.
And thank you, Madeline, for joining me for our first podcast together. I'm sure it won't be the last. And yeah, we'll see you guys in the next episode.
Brought to you by Authors Own Publishing, the Home of Indie Publishing. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts and follow us on Instagram at Authors Own Publishing. Music brought to you by Mikel, with more details in the show notes.
Episode Description
Come along and chat with Danikka and guest author Madeline Burget about being scammed as an indie author.
Caraway of the Sea is a new adult pirate low-fantasy. You can find it here!
Trigger/Content Warnings for the episode include: mentions of fundamentalist religions, indoctrination and emotional manipulation.
Brought to you by: Authors Own Publishing, Danikka Taylor, and Erin Thomson.
Danikka’s Details:
Website: www.authorsownpublishing.com
Instagram: @danikkataylor or @authorsownpublishing
Erin’s Details:
Website: www.erinthomsonauthor.com
Instagram: @authorerinthomson
Intro & Outro Music by Mikel & GameChops. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily reflect the views of Authors Own Publishing. Thanks for Listening!
