Episode 6: Revising Your First Draft
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Danikka: Hey there, welcome to the Snailed It podcast with Danikka and Erin, brought to you by Authors Own Publishing.
Erin: Hi everyone, welcome back to the Snailed It podcast with Danikka and Erin. This is part two of our drafting, revising, editing, whatever you want to call it, series. And we're talking about revising, the revision process.
Danikka: Yes, so in the last episode, in the first half, we were talking about how to get into that routine, or well, I mean, we were talking about how we get into the routine and maybe you took away some tips.
Erin: Or not having a routine, either way.
Danikka: Yeah, of getting into the finishing your first draft.
Erin: Finishing your draft, yeah.
Danikka: Yeah, so in this episode we're picking up with the idea that you've finished your first draft and now you're going back – doing the revising that you need to do before you start working with an editor. So that kind of self-revising and drafting process where you're kind of going back through the story and you can self-identify things that need fixing, or revising, or expanding, or yeah.
Erin: I actually find this part the hardest.
Danikka: Yeah?
Erin: The self-identifying, it's not my strength. Yeah. Because I, well, I think because my, it's so dependent on my mood.
Danikka: [Laughs] Yeah.
Erin: Like it'll be so dependent on like, yes, this is great, this, I'm so glad I wrote this. Or like, this is the worst thing that the world has ever seen.
Danikka: Yeah, this is when Barb comes into play.
Erin: Ooh, Barb, she's a bitch during the revision process. Yeah.
But I did a post on Instagram a little while ago that has been like, I absolutely hate revising. Like I used to tell myself the story and then that was it. I was done.
I'm like, okay, I know what happens. I don't need to do it anymore.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: But the story gets so much better.
Danikka: Yeah, yeah.
Erin: But you can't work on it straight away.
Danikka: No.
Erin: Do not work on it, like, ideally, like two weeks minimum.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: Let that baby breathe and give yourself a brain break. Binge some books.
Danikka: Takeaway number one from this episode.
Erin: Do not go back into it straight away.
Danikka: Yeah. Go on a binge fest of books in your genre is actually what I think should happen.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: So, like, heaps of—it bugs me so much! I see so often, ‘don't read your genre while you're writing’. And I actually think that that's rubbish.
Maybe, maybe don't read your genre while you're writing your first draft, necessarily. Like maybe use, maybe you can use Save the Cat or something like that for a beat sheet and self-plan your story, and maybe don't binge in your genre. But I think once you get to that revising stage, I actually think it's a really good idea to read in your genre and like go on binge and just really enjoy and remind yourself why you enjoy the genre as a reader and what you loved most about those different books that you've read.
And then you'll come back to revising with kind of a fresh love for the genre. And, you know, you'll start to then be able to read your book as if it was another one of those.
Erin: Yeah. I think that's very good advice. Yeah.
Because yeah, once you've finished the first draft, depending on if you've done any kind of like revising as you've written, which, you know, they say, don't edit while you're writing, whatever. It happens sometimes.
You'll be sick of it. You'll like, I know I get to the very end—Danikka always laughs in my last few chapters because she's literally like shoving bricks into a hole. Like just, I need it to be done – now.
[Danikka laughs]
Erin: So if I went back to it too soon, I'd be like, nope, I've got nothing. I still don't know where these characters are supposed to go.
Like you just need, you need some space to breathe. Your brain needs a break. So yes, reading, reading in your genre, I think is a good, is a good advice because when I'm drafting, I can't read in my genre because it distracts me.
Yeah. Or I find my voice changing to match the books that I'm reading.
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah. You get the mimicky, kind of—
Erin: Yeah. So I need, I need to have either nothing or mind you, if I start reading historicals and everyone starts talking in that Victorian way.
Danikka: [Laughs] Yeah. I start thinking like that when I'm reading lots of history books.
Erin: So yeah, just get into that. You've written it and you should be at least partly happy with it. There'll be bits that you love and bits that maybe you don't love.
But yeah, read in your genre, get some like, ground yourself in there and be like, yeah, that's right. That's what needs to happen. And maybe you'll find things that you didn't quite hit.
Like, oh, I didn't really get the buildup of this, or I didn't get the like in romance, like, I didn't really like my third act breakup or whatever. Like, yeah, you might find things that you sort of realise where you can do better when you start revising.
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, yeah, it's kind of, and then once you start revising again, then you stop reading in your genre again.
Like once you're back in your story and working on and read something else if you're reading in between, because yeah, you don't want to get into that kind of mimicky, changing your story too much to match whatever you're writing at the moment. Yeah. But yeah, I think it does, it's really refreshing when you're having those breaks from your book to be able to kind of remind yourself why you're writing in the genre that you love and, you know, enjoy it.
Erin: Yeah. I'm trying to think of how I even start. I've got a real thing about first lines.
Like I want the first line to like slap and sometimes it doesn't. Although, but that's one of the things that I find the hardest when I'm starting drafting is that I want that first line to be perfect straight away. It's like, no, you're it.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: And because I write in dual POV as well, I want like the first line in chapter one and the first line in chapter two, because that's usually different characters. So you need to, for both of them to be like good.
Danikka: Harley’s first line in Strings Attached is like next level. It's probably one of my favorite first lines you've done.
Erin: Well, and it was originally, it was the very first line in the book, but then when we put Jake's thing in front of it, it was no longer the first line in the book, which [laughs] still kind of bugs me.
Danikka: [Laughs] It's like, let's change the order of all of the chapters.
Erin: So I've got a real thing about first line. So going back and then revising if the first line is not good, I love making that better. That makes me very happy.
And then otherwise, I think it's just sort of, I usually have an idea of what I didn't like to begin with. And so I can start to get an idea of what probably needs to change.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: But it's not always, it's not always obvious until you do go back and read it and go, oh yeah, especially if you have been reading and kind of realized that there's some things that you didn't quite get right the first time.
Danikka: Speaking of first lines, please, please, please never, ever, ever open your book with dialogue. Just don't do it. Just don't.
Erin: [Laughs] So this is one of Danikka's many gripes with my early draft is, although I do, I am better at it now.
Dialogue out of the start of a scene or a chapter or whatever. But do you know how many books I read where the first line is, like so many.
Danikka: Yeah. It really, like, it just, oh, I get so mad.
Erin: It's not your thing.
Danikka: Yeah. Like, it's like, I could deal with it if it's a chapter, like later in the book. Like, especially if they're chapters that, you know, go straight into one after another, I can, I can deal with it.
Like, I'd prefer it if you didn't, but sometimes, sometimes it's like, it's whatever. But the first line of your book should not be dialogue. It can be like, like, you can have a sentence and then dialogue.
Like, I'd rather you didn't, but you can. But just please, please, please, please do not put dialogue as the opening of your book. For your first draft, perfect.
Whatever gets you going. But when you start revising, that is going to be the first thing that you change.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: Because the reader has no idea what this person's voice sounds like. They have no idea why they care what they're saying. And it's just really lazy.
It's like, there's no picture.
Erin: You don't actually know who's really talking, really.
Danikka: Exactly.
Erin: You've got no context for any of it.
Danikka: Yeah. Like, even if someone's saying something mean or something like that, we don't care. We don't, like, we don't know why we care that they're saying something mean.
We're not attached to it. Like, that, you're losing the punchiness of that line because we have no idea what we're rooting for at the start of this chapter. Like, I've seen so many different, like, first liners.
Like, I think Harley's first line was something about Mondays being cursed or coffee machines not working on a Monday or something.
Erin: Harley’s first line is: It is a well-known fact that there is nothing worse than a broken coffee machine on a Monday morning.
Danikka: Yes, exactly. And so, immediately, you're like, you've got those caffeinated people. You've got all the people who are like, yes, I love coffee.
Yeah, that's totally true. And you've got a really good feel for, like, Harley's view on life and that, like, that snappy sense of humor that she has. And yeah, it just, in so many ways, it's an amazing introduction to Harley. It’s an amazing introduction to your setting, because Harley works in a cafe.
It's an amazing introduction just to, like, so many different things.
Erin: I’m trying to think of what the first lines for the other ones are.
Danikka: I can't remember, actually.
Erin: I think The Wedding Planners was, there is only so much pacing you can do in, like, a certain size flat.
Danikka: Oh yeah, that's right. Gemma pacing in her flat.
Erin: Oh, and Chase was we really need a lock on the office door. Which could go either way. Why does she want a lock on the office door?
Danikka: Exactly.
Erin: Not for that way. Not for the way you're thinking.
Danikka: And for both of those characters, such a good introduction because Gemma is a workaholic who's constantly stressed and she's just had her whole career flushed down the toilet by a bad review on her catering business. And Chase is a grump who, when she's coping with shit and stress, locks herself away. It's like, take an element and we could do another whole episode on this, but this is just for this episode, for me right now, and revising.
Erin: Do not start your book with dialogue.
Danikka: The first thing you're changing is, yeah, if you have started chapter one with your dialogue, to get the ball rolling for draft one, it's been changed in draft two.
Erin: Yeah, because sometimes as a person who starts with dialogue, sometimes that's where my brain naturally starts there. And then it's just, and further down, there's a little bit of exposition or explaining where you are. That just needs to be put at the top instead.
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes that's all it is.
Sometimes you've already written the perfect first line and you just have to move it.
Erin: Yeah. So they're some of the first things that change in revisions.
Danikka: The other thing is if you lean on having your character waking up in the morning to get a chapter going.
Erin: Oooh.
Danikka: That happens a lot. Just think of some other way for them to be starting. It can still be in the morning, but just don't have them waking up all the time.
What are they doing in the morning? Are they making their coffee or are they—
Erin: In the shower?
Danikka: Yeah, in the shower, or texting someone, or something like that? Yeah.
Because having them wake up is just very, it can get extremely repetitive. I had one book that I edited and nearly every chapter started with the character waking up. So there was a lot of changing happening in that book.
Yeah. So yeah, that's a very common crutch. So you're looking for things like that.
Erin: Yeah. And I think you can have, it's probably, I have more of a routine when I'm revising because I don't have that freedom of doing everything on my phone wherever I please because I like to be able to see it. I like to be able to do it on my laptop because I can just, you've got a bit more freedom and you can make comments for yourself and sort of move things around a bit easier than if you're on your phone.
Yeah. And I've seen advice for like the first, if you're doing revisions, like do one read-through where you're just looking at plot or one read-through where you're just looking at one character and then read through where you're looking at another character so that you don't get—
Danikka: Overwhelmed.
Erin: —overwhelmed. I would be overwhelmed having to read through that many times.
So I tend to do it all at once. But there's also not, makes my book sound bad, there's not as much going on. Like if I was rereading a political fantasy, then I think you would need to be focusing on single things because you've got a lot more moving pieces.
Whereas there are not that many moving pieces in my book.
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah. It would be dependent on your genre for sure.
And you're never going to pick everything up yourself. And I think that's the other expectation you need to kind of set is it's not normal. Like I only know one author, to be honest, who is so good at revising that I just, she blows my mind, to be honest.
Erin: Is it Kate? It's Kate. It's Kate.
Danikka: Yeah:
Erin: It's not me.
[Both laugh]
Danikka: That's all right.
You were reading Project November the other day and you were like, which way was she facing on the saddle again? How did she twist 360 degrees? So I'm definitely not very good at it either.
Erin: She pulled him on the horse a different way than I expected. That was all that was.
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah. I fixed it. I didn't see it.
Erin: But yeah, so it's not normal.
Danikka: Yeah, exactly. It's not normal to be able to see all of the issues yourself. So definitely don't expect that of yourself.
Erin: Yeah. And there's also, it's also that thing of it's your work. So you're not necessarily going to see the holes and someone else's opinion is just going to be different from yours.
So yeah. Fix what you can fix, but don't, don't be then sort of set in stone that this is how, that there'll be nothing else to find. There will.
There definitely will.
Danikka: There always is.
Erin: And you may find like on your 10th read-through, you may find, you, you'll find different things that you didn't in the second read-through.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: And also the more time you spend with them, the more time you're reading, you're like, Oh no, I don't like the way that is happening. Or this person needs more of an arc. Or when I had an early reader read Five Dates Between Friends, they read it and they were like, no The Wedding Planners.
She was like, Nash has no friends. What is going on?
Erin: Nothing happening in his life.
Danikka: He has nothing. Um, yeah. There was all of this stuff.
And without that friend pointing that out, you wouldn't have Five Dates Between Friends would not have existed.
Erin: No, exactly. So it's all very important.
And you, your self revisions can also incorporate feedback from critique partners if you've had them too. Because you may not be at beta reader stage at this point. No.
You probably need to at least do one sort of round of revisions before you get to beta. Um, and you like them after, after a developmental.
Danikka: Yeah. I, I actually like to, like some people get, have a round of betas before they bring it to me, but I usually like if they've done that for them and give me the copy with the beta feedback in it as well, or to have betas go through at the same time as me, um, when we're doing.
Erin: Which is what we do.
Danikka: Yeah. So usually we do it when we've just finished the developmental edit. And then while I'm working through and doing the copy edit, we'll get the beta feedback coming through.
And so we'll be able to make tweaks and things. So that's, I find that works really, really well because all of the major changes have been made.
Erin: Yeah. And I have a better idea of the story at that point. Cause I think if I had beta feedback before that, I would potentially take on things that may not be helpful or stuff that doesn't quite work just because I don't know the characters as well as I do once we've finished the developmental edit, I reckon.
Danikka: Yeah, exactly.
And that's good too, because like we talked about in the beta reader episode, sometimes you get feedback from betas that is not necessary or is not what you, what's needed or it's interpreted wrong.
Erin: Or it just doesn't gel with your story. Like you're, still the one who knows your story better than anyone else.
Danikka: Exactly, exactly. So if you leave betas until a later stage, then that, you know, will give you more strength when it comes to that stage and you're getting a bit more feedback. So critique partners are ideal for this kind of revising stage because you're usually helping them with their writing as well.
Erin: Yeah. And they might've seen it change a little bit during your drafting process, if you've been sort of exchanging chapters while you're drafting.
Danikka: Yeah, exactly.
Erin: So yeah, revising, it can be hard, but I have, I, whenever I start revising, I start, like do a copy of that draft, that first draft, and then start a blank document called offcuts and everything I don't like, do not delete it. Do not delete anything, like nothing. Even if it's a sentence, don't delete it.
Put it in the offcuts file because at some point, especially, well, if you hate it, then fine, delete it. But even if you hate it, I don't know if I would, just because you just don't know if that may, and it may not be worded exactly the same, but there's something in that, like you might be able to go, oh, that now fits at the three-quarter mark rather than at the one quarter mark.
Danikka: Yeah, exactly. And you don't know if you hate it just because Barb's speaking, your version of Barb. It's true.
You might come back another day and be like, why did I hate that so much? It's actually really good.
Erin: That actually works really, yeah, that was good. It just didn't work there. So it needs to be moved to somewhere else.
So yeah, that's one of my big things, like don't delete anything. Just take it out. Or I often, Danikka will see, my documents end up being filled with different coloured text.
Like I'll go through it the first time and change all of the stuff that I'm not so sure about to purple. And then when I'm scrolling through, I can see that it's different. It also helps though to print it out and do it on paper because sometimes you just read it differently, right?
Like rather than on screen.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: And it can kind of feel a little bit like double handling because then if you're making changes, you then have to input them into your document. But it's, yeah, I don't know. I sometimes find printing it out helpful.
Danikka: It is actually a different part of your brain that reads things on paper than what reads it on screen. So it's actually a really good tip. And it's good.
Like I know whenever we finish the copy edits, you usually get a proof copy and read through and you'll always catch some things as well. Yeah. I actually did your copy edits mostly on paper this time because I was on the screen so much.
I was like, oh, I'm just going to do it on the paper. And then I've just been transferring them in.
Erin: I don't know how you do them on the screen to begin with. All those commas.
Danikka: [Laughs] Commas are so contentious. But yeah.
Erin: Yeah. So and I think, especially in the first revision, similar to the first draft, don't be too hard on yourself.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: And it depends. It also depends what kind of writer you are. If you've been an overwriter, you might find that you need to cut stuff.
Or if you're an underwriter, you'll be sort of fleshing stuff out more. But also, I don't love either of those terms because it's also very dependent on how you're publishing. If you're an underwriter or an overwriter, if you're self-publishing, it doesn't matter because you're the one who's doing it.
Like I think if I was traditionally published, my books would not be as long as they are. I'd probably have to cut out 20K each.
Danikka: Yeah.
Erin: I tend to draft to about 90. And I think the average rom-com is probably like 75 to 80. And mine after revisions end up being 100.
So yeah. Just do your best.
Danikka: Yeah. This has given me an idea for another podcast episode for another day. But that's why I think traditional publishing is not the standard we should be aiming for when it comes to what we're writing.
If you want to be traditionally published, then you do need to fit their parameters. But it's not the standard that indie authors are aiming for.
Erin: No. And if your book needs, if your characters need that many words to tell their story, then let them tell it. Especially when you're in first draft, but also when you're in revisions.
Don't cut stuff for the sake of pleasing like an industry-standard word count. Yeah.
Danikka: Exactly. That's not.
Erin: Yeah. I'm a bit of a, I tend to be a bit of an overwriter, so I'm not sure. It depends.
Sometimes my, I'm too dialoguey. I occasionally get notes from saying, this reads like a script.
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's probably something that happens with a lot of people.
And I think overuse of dialogue to move the story forward can happen a lot too. Sometimes there's conversations that can happen off-screen, not necessarily on the page, off the page, not on the page.
Erin: Well, and they also don't need to be as long. Like some of the beta feedback that I got for strings was sort of tighten this, like this conversation doesn't need to be this long. Like you can condense.
So they're good things to look for. Like if you've got big chunks of anything. So if you've got big chunks of dialogue, if you've got big chunks of exposition, if you've got big chunks of like inner monologue, all of that can be tightened up really.
And so I think I've seen other people talk about when they're revising, printing out a copy and then having like three highlighters and then using one highlighter for dialogue, one highlighter for inner monologue and one highlighter for exposition and highlighting each thing in each color. And then you can see what kind of balance you've got, which I think is like, that's pretty good. I think to see, because when I started, I did not do, I was not super comfortable maybe with inner monologue.
There was a lot more dialogue than anything else, like moving to, like you said, trying to move the story forward, but it just doesn't need to be there necessarily.
Danikka: But I think that's a really good summary of like, you'd probably go through two to three rounds of self-revisions before looking to work with an editor.
Erin: Yeah, because how, I don't like the word polished, but how polished do you expect it to be when it comes to you?
Danikka: I don't know if I would use the word polished, but I would want to know—
Erin: I didn't know, I didn't know a better word to use.
Danikka: Yeah, it's like, it's no, like, but because like, that's what I was thinking. I was like, yeah, polished is probably good. And I was like, no, probably not.
Because what I want is for the author to have gone through it enough times that they don't, they honestly probably don't know what to do next. Like they, most of the time, you need, you've gone through it enough times that you've identified two to three problem areas that you know need help, but you don't know how to help them. Like you, like, like for you, it's often the end, like you've got most of it together and you've gotten to the end, you're like, I don't like it, but I don't know what to do.
Erin: But I don't know what to do.
Danikka: Yeah. Yeah. And so, and like another client I'm working with at the moment, she knew that her female MC, her main character needed more development than her male character, but she didn't know how to do it.
She was like, I don't know. Like, ‘I just don't feel like I know her as well’ is what she said to me. And I was like, well, perfect.
Erin: Exactly.
Danikka: Let's explore her. And then talking about what you said about never deleting anything, the day before we had our kickoff call, she found a whole heap of stuff that she wrote a couple of years ago, specifically for this character that she'd forgotten that she'd written.
So don't delete anything.
Erin: Don't delete anything. Never, never, never.
Danikka: Because then as soon as she read that, she was like, I feel so much more inspired now.
And I was like, yeah, perfect. And there's probably heaps of stuff in there that's usable. So then, and that was part of my feedback for her too.
When we first, when I like came onto the first call, I was like, so I feel really connected to the guy character, but like, I don't, I don't see the growth that you're wanting. Cause as part of my editing survey, I'm like, you know, what do you want to be coming across in the story? And part of it was that, you know, both characters had a really important lesson to learn and she wanted them to be very different from the start to finish.
And I was like, I can see that growth for him, but she like, she hasn't changed from start to finish. I was like, I don't see that growth. And, but then once we've got all this extra information, it's immediately more clear.
So then, yeah, I just want, when it comes to me that for you to have gone through it enough times that you feel stuck. So for some people you've gone through it the first time and you feel stuck and you don't know what to do next. And then for other people, they've maybe gone through it three or four times and then finally got stuck.
Like, yeah, that's kind of where I feel like developmental editing comes in is at the point where you're feeling stuck.
Erin: I feel like that's a good explanation of it because you do get to, you do get to that point where you're like, I know it can be better, but I don't know how to get it better.
Danikka: Yeah, exactly. And then that's when, you know, two brains are better than one comes in.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: Yeah. And like, it's because I've worked with you for so long, I feel like sometimes I don't even need the draft to be finished for us to start working together. Like it wasn't for Strings.
Erin: Strings are tough.
Danikka: Yeah. I'm so familiar with how you work now that by the time we got to that point, it was like, oh, you know, these are some of our options. And then, yeah, that was enough to kind of get you going.
Erin: Yeah.
Danikka: And that's why I don't like saying that I do writers coaching, but developmental editing for me is kind of like writing. Yeah. So it's like, it's like a fine balance.
Like I wouldn't be like a lot of writers coaches coach during the drafting process. So helping you get your first draft finished.
Erin: Oh, okay.
Danikka: And then they kind of help you through the self-revisions as well. That's what a lot of writing coaches do. And I cannot do that.
I need the full picture.
Erin: That is not my bag.
Danikka: Yeah. No, I'm like, if you don't know roughly how you want it to end or you don't know your characters very well, and you're still got like three different potential directions that you're going to take the book in or like multiple books in, go get a writer coach for that. I don't, I can't help with that.
Awesome, well, that kind of brings us to a good point at the end of this episode.
Erin: Yeah. That's it. Bye.
Danikka: Thank you for listening to The Snailed It Podcast. Brought to you by Authors Own Publishing, the home of indie publishing. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts and follow us on Instagram @authorsownpublishing.
Music brought to you by Mikel with more details in the show notes.
Episode Description
Today on the Snailed It Podcast, Danikka and Erin discuss first drafts and the revision process for writing your novel. If you're looking for tips during this stage of the writing process, you won't want to miss it!
Brought to you by: Authors Own Publishing, Danikka Taylor, and Erin Thomson.
Danikka’s Details:
Website: www.authorsownpublishing.com
Instagram: @danikkataylor or @authorsownpublishing
Erin’s Details:
Website: www.erinthomsonauthor.com
Instagram: @authorerinthomson
Intro & Outro Music by Mikel & GameChops. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily reflect the views of Authors Own Publishing. Thanks for Listening!
